America article

The article is here. I haven't commented because the speculation is completely beyond me. But if folks have feedback, it's very welcome.

UPDATE: Pete's thoughts on schism here.

Comments

[Mouse from Am Pap]

My question--- It seems like events are really starting to pick up speed. If this article turns out to be accurate, what can we do for the people who are still stuck at the "LC/RC is perfect, God draws straight with crooked lines, the illegitimate kids PROVE that he didn't molest boys" stage? Is there anyway to help these folks? I mean, for someone with their world-view, dissolution would seem to come from nowhere--- how do we help our friends and neighbors avoid schism?

[www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=637070545]

Thanks Giselle!

[Jane]

Mouse, you remind me of a question I keep forgetting to ask. Hopefully someone like Pete can answer.

I have heard "schism" mentioned several times over the months. What does this really mean?

I have a basic understanding of a schism, but somehow, I don't see how it could happen in this case. Could it?

Maybe Pete can educate us on schisms, and comment in light of the current circumstances in the Legion and RC?

[Anon in STL OUT 6-09]

Mouse, I really don't know. I worry about that too and am pretty discouraged about it. I am wondering if a meeting w/the local Bishop would at least alert him to the issues and this exact concern. I sometimes hear that Bishop X is aware of the problems, yet nothing is ever said publicly that I know of and it leaves an impression that things are fine and they are approved and encouraged, which is what they also hear from the LC.

[Freetobe]

Mouse, it is something to ponder and we vascillate between the SWAT team approach to praying and fasting. We have decided to be more open and frank with people and not play the RC game of charity=silence.

On another subject, does anyone recall the story of how the Legion circumvented the normal process for approval of their constitutions and JPII took over and gave the approval himself? Maybe it was the usual Legionary bragging but we were told this story while in RC. Speaking of bragging, I remember Fr. Edward Hopkins, in a homily no less, saying that membership in RC means you have the "pope in your fan club".

[mom in atlanta]

Freetobe: We are taking that approach too.

[www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=637070545]

Jane and others:

- Schism, as defined by canon 751, "is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him."

- Back in April I blogged a post about the steps movements often take toward schism, which you can read here:

http://catholiclight.stblogs.org/archives/2009/04/how-schism-beco.html

I believe Giselle linked to it as well.

- For answers to more questions relating to schism, new religious movements, etc... I would invite you to pick up a copy of my books Surprised by Canon Law (volumes 1 and 2) published by Saint Anthony Messenger Press.

[Woody Jones]

Hi Jane,

From my arguments with Pete, years ago now, concerning the canonical status of the Society of St Pius X, I recall that schism is canonically defined in Canon 751 of the 1983 Code of Canon Law, which states as follows:

"Can. 751 Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him."

So it looks to me like the canonical question is whether a particular body or person refuses "submission to the Supreme Pontiff or [...] communion with the members of the Church subject to him."

I used to argue that the SSPX was not at least technically in schism under this definition because they include the Pope in the canon of the Mass, follow some, but not all, of the legal precepts (e.g., they say that the eucharistic fasting requirement is technically only one hour, although to be a true traditionalist one should fast for 3 hours--that kind of thing), and nowadays they are even speaking pretty well of ur current Holy Father. Pete I think argued that even granted these things, they were in a practical state of refusal of submission. I no longer much care abiut this stuff, but would just note a couple of things about this: (1) the most recent pronouncements from Rome on the SSPX have tended to fudge the issue if not deny that a schism exists (I am thinking of the interview from Cardinal Castrillon Hoyos, then prefect of the Ecclesia Dei Commission, in 30 Giorni about a year or so ago, in which he says, if I recall, that the SSPX are not in formal schism --even if there is a materail schism in the sense of practical separation of SSPX followers from other Church faithful -- a situation to which we can all attest). Second, and you all will love this, given my more rceent posture as a LC/RC defender, I actually went over to the Orthodox Church for a couple of years (2000-02) before coming back to Rome, and I can tell you that having been a real schismatic at that time (to go into Orthodoxy from Rome, one has to stand up in the church and publicly renounce the Pope and all his works), the SSPX are not in the same league.

Anyway, all of this is just to get Pete's juices going, but I have never heard any LC folks ever talking about anything like refusing submission to the Roman pontiff--quite the opposite. So I doubt that schism will be the issue here.

[Mouse from Am Pap]

So, then, what's the technical term for members of a movement who carry on as if a suppression or dissolution was mistaken and invalid?

What I'm concerned about, I guess, is the people who are praying that Benedict will have the grace to see how great the LC/RC really are. If the order is dissolved, will they see this as the pope not taking advantage of grace? Or will they somehow be able to change their worldview 180 just because Rome has spoken?

After all we've seen this problem with other groups. (I.e. the people who insist on making pilgrimages to Medagorje/ confessing to priests who don't have faculties in that diocese, even though the local ordinary has told them to stop.)

So, I guess my question is, is there anything we can do to help people be ready to accept the pope's decision? (I've bounced the idea of an outside superior off some of my friends, since that's a minimum in a situation like this and there are recent examples of such a thing (i.e. Miles Jesu) --They seemed kind of suprised and horrified that the vatican could just remove all the leadership and put non-Lcs in charge of LC formation..... and honestly, if THAT move is shocking, what would dissolution do to them? )

[Another exLegionary]

I agree 100% with Woody. The end times must be near.

[Jane]

OK, I consulted my copy of Surprised by Canon Law, (good book, by the way, you should all buy a copy...wink wink, right Pete?) and in the section on schism, the last sentence says it all for me - "In accordance with canon 1364, paragraph 1, the penalty for schism is automatic excommunication".

I doubt that any of the RCs or LCs I know would go there.

Any maybe that answers your question, Mouse, as to what you can do for these people to be ready to accept the Pope's decision. They won't have any choice BUT to accept it, unless they are okay with being excommunicated. Doubtful, right?

[M.I.]

Mouse,

I guess that there's not much we can do. I have noticed that no matter how reasonable the arguments you use are, when someone does not want to see, you get nowhere, because this person is basically in denial.
I believe that with all the elements out there, any normal, thinking adult could reach the truth. If they don't is because they do not want to (evasion, fear, dependency, etc etc... all the reasons that keep a person tied to a cult) They are not ready.

I suppose that we have to speak with the truth and provide the truth to whoever wants to have it, but apart from that, I guess that we have to pray with all our hearts and trust that God -in His own time- will make all things happen.

If we don't, all this will could very discouraging... For us, all this is crystal-clear, but not for everyone, and we could -we could- end up with a panorama where there's no dissolution but just some very severe recommendations from the Pope (that the LC would 'water down', as with the 2006 communiqué)

I guess in the end, we have to do what we can (i.e., talk to the right people, contact the AV, warn the local pastor, etc) and once having done that, remain in peace and leave the rest in God's hands. If we don't, all this will take a HUGE toll on us... on our soul, on our emotional and spiritual health and our very joy of being Christians.

Just a thought... :-)

[www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=637070545]

I'm writing a post on this as we speak. Check Catholic Light around noon.

[Still RC - For Now, Anyway]

Mouse et al,

This is a concern I have as well as a member within the RC. It's not a matter of "accepting" it technically - I really don't think that many RC'ers (at least in my section) are prepared to be ex-communicated. But the prospect of psychological damage for many of my RC colleagues, frankly, disturbs me greatly.

What I would recommend is to find someone in RC who is at least open to receiving this news. Send them the America article. It needn't be with the premise of "let me help you prepare" or "What are you all going to do" - it should be done with the message of "FYI because this, even if completely baseless, is serious news and the RC leadership may wish to know about it so they can help the membership who might also be hearing news of this sort". And leave it at that.

Perhaps that seems too delicate or equivocal - yes, it is certainly both. BUT that may be what's required - you want the doors to remain open and the real need here, above any other need, is first and foremost to get them the info. Later on you can help as needed and requested. But get them the info. first.

This is what I plan to do. I feel it's my moral duty (not to sound grandiose but I'm reminded of St. Paul's words "Woe to me if I don't preach the Gospel". I really do feel like it's woe to ME, a member who is reading the outside news, if I don't get this serious info. to my RC leadership. If they reject it or attempt to feed me more Kool-aid it's their decision and their consequence if something ends up blindsiding the membership later on. I will have done my duty and what I believe God is asking of me at this time.

[m]

I'm worried about RCisnotmylife. I hope everything is okay with her. She's in my prayers.

[giselle]

She's just fine -- but prayers much appreciated.

[Dominus Flevit]

I agree with Still RC that there won't be a problem with LC/RC dissent from whatever the Pope decides, much less schism (zero chance of that, IMHO).

The real problem is handling the shock and disillusionment many members may experience after discovering that the organization and methodology they have structured their entire spiritual lives around is not legitimate.

We have to remember that Maciel manipulated people by using what is GOOD. Love for Christ and desire to follow Him more closely. Generosity. Thirst for sound Catholic doctrine.

The Legion misused many of these these noble aspirations to re-direct members into busy-work, pointless fundraisers masquerading as apostolate, and obvious a reliance on the spiritual wisdom allegedly available through the writings of "Nuestro Padre."

But the underlying motivation of members to have a deeper spiritual life and share it with others was good. And even the formation provided by the Legion contained much that was good -- maybe because Maciel just crudely copied it from the Jesuits or other movements without a deep understanding.

Anyone who realizes he has been burned by Maciel (or someone like Maciel) may be tempted to throw the baby out with the bathwater. To regard radical self-giving as foolishness and a desire to share the Faith with others and unnecessary or uninteresting. The danger is spiritual lukewarmness or a personal crisis of faith. This is what the Apostolic Visitators have to think about in determining what is the best way forward for current members of the Legion and RC.

Time to redouble prayer for this intention.

[giselle]

DF: You have encapuslated the entire scam well, and then explained the ensuing scandal at the heart of it. Perfect!

[Mouse from Am Pap]

DF- Good point. I think Peter's new article at Catholic Light was also very good.

So, I guess the answer for those of us on the ground is to pray, be ready to comfort and listen, and maybe have a good reading list handy in case anyone asks?

[Jane]

Sorry I can’t post this at Catholic Light. Technical difficulities.

Yesterday, Pete noted in his “Maciel is Still the Message” (http://catholiclight.stblogs.org/archives/2009/09/maciel-is-still.html)
the Regnum Christi website reference to the Foundation Museum in Cotija, in the childhood home of Father Maciel (http://www.regnumchristi.org/english/articulos/articulo.phtml?id=13829&se=359&ca=84&te=782)

The Foundation Museum information has now been removed from that link.
Maybe the RC webmaster is a Catholic Light fan?

[Anonymous]

HA! Many thanks to Richard Chonak for making sure to record this website for posterity's sake here:

http://www.webcitation.org/5jrxxufM9

I KNEW that would happen! Proof that the PTB (powers that be) are actually reading these blogs. Praise be to God that we can now record thesee webpages at webcitation.com. Because you KNOW how the RC/LC are now claiming that Maciel was never the message.
And they believe by pulling down the message boards, they can rewrite the history.

[anonymous]

Everytime we link to something on the RC site, we should record it first. Those LCs are fast to get stuff down!!

[giselle]

Heh. I think that's the third article link that's been removed due to intense traffic from the "disgruntled" ex-members. At least they're sensitive to their image -- and to the evidence that they cannot let go of MM.

Btw, there was an article shortly after news broke in February with some dicey quotes from residents of Cotija. Whether or not they love MM, their bread and butter comes from these devoted tourists. Time to rethink their economy.

[anonymous]

I was in SSPX during the schism, and I really thought Rome got it wrong. I continued like nothing happened b/c I was in the right and I had 2,000 years of Church tradition backing me up. I can see RC members doing the same. Their numbers might go down, but there will be staunch supporters for years to come until they finally fade out...

[Anonymous]

I was just thinking of that this morning, Giselle. The poor people of Cotija. If Maciel had cared ONE IOTA about the people of his hometown, he would have used some of his massive amount of money on setting them up in some industry other than himself. He had to realize there was a possibility his house of cards might come falling down one day (esp after he was disciplined in 2006). I suppose he cared about as much about the poor of Cotija as he did about his abuse victims.