Yesterday we undertook a discussion about manipulating children, and after nearly a hundred responses we have the standard difficulties in navigating them, and the natural evolution into another topic, for at the heart of the family we discover that the Legion often creates a wedge between husband and wife.
The most recent comment includes these thoughts:
Gregorbo, I think you may be onto something with your hypothesis that the sacrament of marriage can serve as an antidote to the injurious nature of LC/RC. But the problem that I see is that a lot of the "faithful" Catholic couples I know are not very happy together and not very close at all. Some of them really don't even like each other. They will stick it because they believe the Church's teaching on the indissolubility of marriage. But it's not a happy state of being.
The weird part is that some of these couples actually seem to regard being joyful in marriage as "immature" and "inappropriate" at this stage of our lives. (We have been married nearly 18 years, so most of the couples I am referring to fall into that same range). As if being crazy in love is only allowed for newlyweds! So I wonder if the ability of the LC/RC to get its foot in the door----and keep driving the wedge open further---isn't that there is already something fundamentally wrong in the understanding of marriage by many "faithful" Catholic types---people who truly want to live out their Catholic principles but have a deeply flawed understanding of what those should be.
Marigold's story demonstrates that couples with strong marriages can still get sucked into LC/RC. But that very bond is what also helped them get out. From what I have been able to tell, LC/RC is rather scared off by strong marriages, in the same way that I think they are often scared off by people who have a very strong theological background. It's as if the LC/RC recognize these strengths will be impediments to their recruiting efforts (what does THAT say about them??) and quickly move on to easier prey.
Of course, I'm sure there are plenty of exceptions to this, but I do think there is a trend here. And if couples could only really develop a wholesome, authentic Catholic marital relationship, it could definitely help them recover from the LC/RC poison.
In recent weeks, we've really wandered into the heart of the Beast and the revelations can be astonishing. This one is no less so. Marriage, of course, is the primordial sacrament, and if the Legion Lies are what we think they are, then to be effective they must go to the heart of redemption.
Marriage is not only the rock on which families are built, but it echoes God's own love for His creation -- with Jesus as Bridegroom and Holy Mother Church as Bride. The nature of authentic spousal love is generous, self-less and oblative. The eyes are fixed on each other for strength and unity of purpose, not elsewhere. Jesus, the head of the Church, shows us the way by laying down and dying for his Beloved. She receives His gift and echoes the passion -- giving herself in turn for Him and His children. If the Movement was -- as many pointed out -- a parallel church, then it had to replace the bride with a concubine. Or to put it differently, it teased the faithful with spiritual adultery. The faithful would never have gone for such a thing, knowing the evils of it, so it was done surrepticiously -- in ways that masked the truth.
Remember this post, about the Movement being the mother (which undermines the Church herself, who must hold that place unchallenged). This is key, because when lies are at the heart of a marriage, the house cannot thrive, it cannot even endure very long.
You've been marvelous in bringing out the resources for better parenting, but now it seems that we need some advice for marriage-building, especially to reignite the legitimate (but mature) passions of established couples who have some difficult chapters already imbedded in their family sagas.
Nota bene: "I have come to bring fire to the earth, would that it were already ablaze!" (Luke 12:49)
Likewise, when couples go deeper and really tap into the nuptial meaning of their lives, there will be far richer and lasting fruits than from all the "efficacious apostolates." Think of the trinitarian love that spills forth and overflows. The same cannot happen through a Movement that applies a wedge between spouses, so as to wring from them more meetings, more recruits and more money. The latter is a scandal, but more important: it's blasphemy. But what would one expect from a fraud such as MM? It all flows downhill.
[Daughter of the Church: it is no coincidence that these great discussions are bubbling forth at this time -- those of you praying the novena have our deepest gratitude!]
OK-- we're still a young couple (married less than 8 years!) but one thing that I've found is good for our marriage, and that seems to be good for the older happily married couples we know, is DOING THINGS TOGETHER!
I mean, I know so many people obsessed with their 'girls' nights out' and whatnot. But there's a lot to be said for letting your husband be your best friend.
So, I'd recommend things like board game nights, reading books together, hiking or biking... any activity where you can have fun together.... Leave the dishes once in awhile and do something FUN! A lot of the people I know who are less happy in their marriage have inadvetantly divided their lives so that home=drudgery, and 'out with the girls' = fun. I think RC plays into this tendency to some extent. Home should be fun too!
Museums, Zoos, Music festivals in the park --all great marriage builders. And best of all, you can even bring the kids along too!
----For an older, wiser, perspective, check out:
Leo Kinsella's books on EWTN: The Wife Desired http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARRIAGE/WIFEDESR.TXT
and The Man for Her
http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARRIAGE/MAN4HER.TXT
Kinsella was on a marriage tribunal, and these books have his advice on how to make marriages that last! Of course 'fun' is a major part of his prescription too...
Posted by: Mouse from Am Pap | September 23, 2009 at 11:02 AM
These days, LC/RC apologists' favorite argument to prove their validity is: "Look at all the good fruits the Movement has given to the Church and the world."
As we've all seen, these fruits are nothing but a very flashy house of cards, and in fewer places is the reality of the Movement's subtle corruption deeper (and thus harder to detect) than in its effects on marriage.
On the outside, RC marriages seem perfect: Both spouses sharing the same "vision and mission," struggling together for the sake of the Kingdom, praying together, educating their kids in the ways of the Kingdom, and sticking together through thick and thin.
Again, from the outside - and even from the inside - it sounds and looks great.
I, myself, while in RC thought everything about my marriage was honky dory. And to be honest, there were many good things. But these were NOT THANKS to RC, but DESPITE RC.
My wife was never as "integrated" as I was, so I had a very clear agenda with her: to "integrate" her further. My wife, in reaction, resented this but would give in to the pressure for the sake of our marriage.
We both had a clear agenda with our kids: to make them members of the Movement, and to this end we were perfectly willing and able to make "Movement Guinea Pigs" out of them.
Conquest and Challenge didn't exist then -- it was all ECyD. And we were willing to experiment on our kids how to best "adapt" ECyD to the American culture. (How do you say "disaster" in English?)
It was not until my wife and I left RC that we realized the amount of mutual manipulation going on, and the extent of our manipulation on our kids.
Now away from any LC/RC influence, we still struggle as a marriage and as a family to recover our identity (not to mention our financial stability). It hasn't been easy and we have a long road ahead of us, but we'll get there one day.
Posted by: mExRC | September 23, 2009 at 11:54 AM
I am a bit uneasy with the sweeping generalization regarding the effect of the movement on marriage. I saw many different marriage situations, some happy marriages, some not, some with one spouse in RC, others with both.
In my own case, I was always given very good marital guidance by the LCs with whom I sought advice. I always came away encouraged and equipped to forge on when I had struggles. I am very grateful for good LC spiritual direction with respect to my marriage. No complaints.
On the other hand, if there was any negative effect on marriage and family life, I observed that to be more as a result of very zealous RC leadership, placing a lot of pressure on my time, even as I tried to decline the apostolic work.
If anyone experienced negative effects in their marriage, it is important, in fairness, to distinguish where these effects came from - the LC or the RC?
And finally, it was up to me to place my marriage and family first. Being accountable for the times I failed in this regard while in RC was all part of my movement out of RC.
Posted by: Jane | September 23, 2009 at 12:37 PM
"If you are not good enough without it, you are not good enough with it." (John Candy as coach in Cool Runnings about winning the gold medal).
I have found the works of Greg Popcak extremely inspiring but also Laura Schlessinger (sp). Dr. Laura is right on with her diagnosis of the nagging wife. I believe it is in the nature of Woman to nag. What do you think Eve did to Adam? She nagged. Therefore, women need to imitate the Blessed Mother in being more inward, joyful, focussed on their husbands.
I said it before, wives have a tremendous power to make or break their husbands. I am not endorsing that wives should suffer abuse, but if their husband is anything close to St. Paul's recommendation of "Husbands love your wives as Christ loves the Church" (after all Jesus laid down his life), it behooves the wife to be "subject to her husband" and be loved the way Christ loved the Church. She doesn't have to nag.
And on occasions when I feel whiny about the things that my husband did NOT do for me, I am deeply ashamed and make an effort to be extra good to him and accept this as a healthy cure for my own selfishness.
From reading all these accounts it strikes me that LC/RC members never feel quite good enough; there is always one more to trump....more to "do" rather than more to "be."
Well, Jesus did not make his sacrifice conditional on our being "good enough", did he?
Jesus' Love for us is Free, Total and Unconditional.
Posted by: Mum26 | September 23, 2009 at 12:46 PM
Being neither LC or RC, but being OP, I'm fascinated with the relationship of RC to LC vis-a-vis the relationship of the Lay Fraternities of St Dominic to the Friars of the Order of Preachers. There have been "lay Dominicans" almost from the start of our Order's history in the 13th century (St Catherine of Siena was a "lay Dominican", not a Sister, in the 14th cent, as was St Rose of Lima in 16th century Peru). However, their freedom of affiliation and spiritual freedom is just as great as that of the friars, nuns, and sisters of the Order. They are not "controlled" by the other branches of the Dominican family.
It's interesting that Opus Dei started as a lay movement and the priests of Opus Dei arose out of lay men in the movement discerning a vocation to the priesthood. The same holds true for other lay movements like Communion and Liberation and the Neo-catechumenal Way.
The Legion of Christ, of course, started as a religious, clerical order and Regnum Christi seems to have been brought into existence as a means to further the aims and increase the coffers of the Legion. If I'm mistaken in my history or my interpretation of this, I'd be interested to know the real scoop.
Posted by: Fr Brian Mulcahy OP | September 23, 2009 at 01:28 PM
Fr. Maciel himself was not the fruit of a "happy marriage"; there is reason to believe that his father, Don Francisco, was not faithful to Donia Maura, thus plunging her into over attachement to Maciel and into "avoidant spirituality"
So what would Fr. Maciel, the pedophile, know about married love? Where would he get that particular "charism". His institutions are strongly individualistic and based on a deep mistrust of human nature, emotions and affection. He is much more comfortable legislating for the individual consecrati -for legislation is what his spirituality consists of....
Posted by: Pablito | September 23, 2009 at 01:44 PM
Fr. Mulcahy,
I was in the Legion 1961-84 and would pretty much agree with you re your genesis of the LC.RC. These groups have a terrible habit of re writing history "all the time" but there is doubt that the Regnum was not in the founder's mind when he started the Legion in 1941; as his letters are basically off limits for non members they can hide that reality; but I read those letters for years and lived in the Legion. The Regnum popped up in the late 60s. Maciel was great at putting others' creativity to his use...
Posted by: Pablito | September 23, 2009 at 01:55 PM
Correction:
but there can be no doubt that the Regnum was NOT in the founder's mind when he started the Legion in 1941;
Posted by: Pablito | September 23, 2009 at 01:57 PM
Thank you, Pablito! Twenty-three years...wow...
Posted by: Fr Brian Mulcahy OP | September 23, 2009 at 02:04 PM
Another Soul approached me today and she was R/C and she just got out!!!!!!
This site gave her the truth she was looking for.
Please all who post here be aware that R/C and L/C are reading this site.Please be careful in case someone finds out who you are
Posted by: Anonymous and Just got out | September 23, 2009 at 02:12 PM
Anon,
Thanks for heads up, Anon who just got out. Most of us still within the LC/RC network in one way or another are very aware of big brother watching and have taken measures to protect our identities.
Which tells you something right there.
How can an organization that calls itself Catholic breed such fear of retaliation for speaking out against it? Vindictiveness and viciousness toward those who disagree with the methods---and especially toward those who speak publicly regarding same disagreements and concerns--are well-known Legion tactics, used to silence and coerce.
I'm glad you just got out. And even more glad that LC/RC are reading these blogs and finding them helpful on their journeys toward healing.
Posted by: Anonymous | September 23, 2009 at 02:21 PM
Pablito and Fr. Mulcahy,
Just a clarification on the timing of the formation of Regnum Christi:
According to the famous "TWA letter" of March 8, 1948 (Envoy I, English version), Maciel sketched out the purpose, means, methodology and aspirations of Regnum Christi.
I also note that in Maciel's famous "multiply myself, divide myself" letter ("When I see the world waning and dying for lack of Christ . . . ") he definitely mentions a movement by the name of Regnum Christi and speaks broadly about the ills it was supposed to address. This was written in July 1946, again according to my Envoy I.
Keep in mind that the LC was founded in 1941, so evidence (albeit LC evidence so "for what it's worth") points to a concept beginning within a few years after the foundation.
Hope this is helpful.
Posted by: Still RC - For Now, Anyway | September 23, 2009 at 02:24 PM
Pablito,
It seems I remember reading someplace that the Legion actually exists for the sake of Regnum Christi, and not vice versa (that although the Legion was founded first, Regnum Christi existed in the mind of Maciel first and foremost, as the reason for the creation of LC). Does this sound familiar from Maciel's writings?
Posted by: Anonymous | September 23, 2009 at 02:24 PM
I stand with Pablito. Regnum Christi came about YEARS AFTER the Legion, and as a clever afterthought.
When Envoy was published, many old letters were edited to read "Regnum Christi" instead of "Legion of Christ."
I clearly remember my SD back in the 70s (years before the first "Mensaje", Envoy's Spanish forefather, was published), that all the letters from Nuestro Pederasta talking about the Legion also applied to Regnum Christi, and thus had to be read as if they said "Regnum Christi" instead of "Legion of Christ."
Posted by: mExRC | September 23, 2009 at 02:41 PM
Giselle,
I didn't mean to highjack the very important thread on marriages. Perhaps a new thread should be started, so that the conversation on marriages can continue here?
Apologies.
Posted by: Fr Brian Mulcahy OP | September 23, 2009 at 02:46 PM
Giselle, my marriage is doing well thanks to my husband who remained sane through my years in the RC. Although he is now pulling in the reigns when my RC acquaintances come calling. I just left. He tugs enough to say, "Don't even think about it!"
Posted by: Anonymous | September 23, 2009 at 02:54 PM
To the 'anons' in this track or anyone else, first of all good for for finding the strength to leave but I wonder whether you could clarify something for me. Unless you paycheck is coming from LC sources, why are you so scared to let people know who you are, what it that the LC/RC can do to you now that you are out. I am genuinely curious where this fear comes from? It's been a theme throughout all these posts. I can see that people who depend on a LC paycheck would want to 'fly under the radar' for now but if you don't that what does it matter who knows. Shouldn't we be be doing just the opposite and demonstrate through openness that we can 'brake the shackles' the movement has placed on us? Surely this will help others in their decision to leave.
Posted by: Astrid Windfuhr | September 23, 2009 at 03:25 PM
Fr Mulcahy.
I am so glad to see a Priest here in our midst.
You must feel you are getting an ear full.
I am ex R/C and I wish I had kept all my Books written by Fr Maciel.I would have sent them to you to evaluate.
All the books Envoy Vol 1,2,3.Also MM had written so many other booklets on the Home the school of Evangelism.!!!!!!!etc
I took them all outside put gas on them and everything else that we had that was L/C and set a FIRE.My neighbors wondered what was the matter.
Father please pray for all of us who were in this Cult and for Protection of all Catholics because it is still in our Church.Our Priest here thinks L/C are just fine.We have no protection.Most innocent Catholic parents have no idea as they go under names such as The Girls Club,the Fashion show,they are masters of disguise.
Thank you for being a Priest and for caring about us and helping Catholics to get to our Eternal home some day.
Posted by: Escaped | September 23, 2009 at 03:33 PM
Jane wrote: "In my own case, I was always given very good marital guidance by the LCs with whom I sought advice. I always came away encouraged and equipped to forge on when I had struggles. I am very grateful for good LC spiritual direction with respect to my marriage. No complaints.
On the other hand, if there was any negative effect on marriage and family life, I observed that to be more as a result of very zealous RC leadership, placing a lot of pressure on my time, even as I tried to decline the apostolic work."
There is no difference between the LC and the RC, Jane, and whatever the RC's asked you to do was under strict obedience and according to the methodology of the Legion. Thus, there had to be a disconnect somewhere in your experience, but I don't know enough details to figure out what it is.
Perhaps yours was a decent LC who was on his way out? Perhaps your RC's got their marching orders from a different chain of command? There is no doubt that your Legionary was a later vocation -- perhaps joining in college or even afterwards.
I cannot be but very glad that you got good advice. That's unarguable -- but you're certainly an anomoly, and I'm guessing there's more to the story.
Posted by: giselle | September 23, 2009 at 03:43 PM
Ursula,
For me, it's a paycheck issue. But I can understand other situations---children involved and/or spouses involved in the movement, many RC/LC in the workplace (even if it's not a place of LC employment), etc, where it might be more harmful to the family than beneficial to the community to speak out publicly at the current time. Also, some people might just not be feeling up to possibly having their reputations in the community impugned during a time in which they are struggling with their own personal adjustments to getting out of LC/RC.
Sometimes you need to heal a bit before you are ready to fight a battle.
Posted by: Anonymous | September 23, 2009 at 03:50 PM
Dear Escaped,
Please do know that I'm keeping you and all those who are struggling to rebuild your lives at this time in my prayers, and in my intentions at Mass. I can't even begin to fathom what it must be like for the priests and seminarians still in LC to be facing the possible dissolution (always waiting for the decision of the Holy See) of the "family" to which you had given your life.
Posted by: Fr Brian Mulcahy OP | September 23, 2009 at 03:56 PM
Ursula,
When a member, for whatever reason, leaves LC/RC, two things happen: People inside start saying ("charitably, of course") not-so-great things about you, to the point that your reputation suffers. After all, in their eyes: you were not "holy" enough, or "strong" enough, "brave" enough, "generous" enough... (you get the idea).
From that point on, you cease to exist for them. Sure, they'll act "charitably" enough when and if they see you. They'll even pretend to care about you. But in reality, they don't give crap about you, as someone else stated on these comboxes.
When you leave, you become ostracized from and feel ignored and abandoned by the people you considered your "spiritual family." It's psychologically devastating to realize that they never really cared for you.
When I left RC (and, by the way, no one made the effort to get me back or check how I was doing), I lost my sense of identity, and to this day the doubt always lingers about having betrayed God. Even when I know rationally that this is not the case, there is this sense that somehow "it was MY fault." I guess it's part of the recovery process, and I am far from full recovery.
Why don't I come out now? I don't want to get my old friends further thrashing my reputation -- and my family's. After all, because technically the jury is still out about the organization, they give themselves ample room to justify their existence and to thrash does who oppose them.
But I'm a patient guy, and when the visitation is over and the truth is further revealed, and the Pope starts taking action, I plan to "come out" and be very vocal and very public about the FRAUD.
Granted, there's a good chance nothing but a slap on the wrist and a cosmetic makeover come from this visitation. If this is the case, frankly I don't know what I'll do.
Posted by: mExRC | September 23, 2009 at 04:14 PM
Remember, the LC priest just told the Atlanta section that those who left succumbed to their inordinate pride.
Interestingly, some are "wooed back," and others get no phone call -- as if the Legion was relieved to see the back of them. (I was in the latter category, but I know of others who were hounded unceasingly to return.)
Posted by: giselle | September 23, 2009 at 04:21 PM
Well I am in a Church that has a large R/C percentage.They are involved in many of our Church ministries involving Family and children.Our Priest sees them as GREAT Catholics big families, going to Confession every 2 weeks and wanting to HELP all these other families in our Church who perhaps do not know their faith.
I never know who is in R/C because I am now in the desert BY CHOICE.Its great to live in silence and hear Gods voice in the midst after all the years of R/C and running.
I know others that left and people in R/C spread malicous rumors about them that were lies.It got around and they were all hurt. I know someone that was speaking out and she got phone calls telling her to keep her mouth shut. There have been rumors of law suits if you are heard speaking out.
It is like a softer version of the Mafia.
I can't really explain fully but there is fear yes most definitely of being found out. Even my spouse believes they are dangerous.
Look up L/C and law suits and they go on forever.They are well known to sue anyone.
Its difficult to be around all of this but thats what it is to be Catholic.
Be careful its a scarey place the Catholic Church!!!!!!
Posted by: Anonymous just got out | September 23, 2009 at 04:21 PM
Mexrc-- Well, I'm sure the Legion will try to spin anything short of dissolution as a 'slap on the wrist.'
Anon just got out - You can't really KNOW what your priest thinks, I bet. Even if he likes the individual families involved in RC, he may have doubts about the organization as a whole......
Posted by: Mouse from Am Pap | September 23, 2009 at 04:26 PM