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I think it is very possible for your time in RC to have been part of God's plan every bit as much as it is possible for God to now plan for you to leave RC. I feel that way about myself.

Why bring you there at all? As you say, there were positives brought about in your life. Praise God. After those changes took place in your faith life, maybe it was YOU who benefitted the movement? Maybe God was blessing RC with an outspoken critical thinker, and your influence could cause others to pause and consider your concerns? Maybe, once you leave, you might lead others out too?

It wasn't God's plan for Maria Gorretti's attacker to attempt to rape her. But only God can turn something so horrific into something so beautiful and pure. She became a saint in trying to stop her attacker from being a rapist for fear that he would end up in hell. Danzi my advise to you is, don't worry to much about was it God's will or not, He did permit it, so just thank Him for the graces you have received over the years and the many blessings in your life.

And now, Danitz, because of your experience, you are one of God's faithful intercessors for this. If you had not been so intimately involved you might not be praying for all involved in such an efficacious way. These prayers will draw down the graces to free the others who might not have ever had the prayers prayed for them for this purpose.

I had a similar experience with Opus Dei (not that it's demonic at heart, but I think they have some serious cult-like issues at their core).

In the end, wondering whether I really had a vocation or not is fruitless, and just how problematic Opus Dei is or not, is also fruitless. God did a lot of good for me through them, and I was trying to do His will during my time in The Work.

Dani, it might help you if you read St Augustine's "Confessions"; his SPIRITUAL journey is somewhat parallel (I'm assuming yours is minus the decadence). :)
And I spent a lot of time wondering why my own childhood pastor took my innocence, too. It's been a long trek but (ironically) I've been able to find some peace with it knowing that if I hadn't been abused by my childhood pastor, the allegations against MM wouldn't have affected me nearly as much four years ago, and I probably wouldn't have gotten involved with some of the ReGAIN people, bringing out the truth about Nuestro Pervert.
You have no idea now how God intends to use your experiences, but He has a plan, and has had that plan for you from time immemorial. (Just not the one RC talked about, most likely). It hurts now, but "character building" always does.

Ok, I think I am starting to understand things. Basically what some of you are saying is that in RC, many had a very positive and powerful experience at some point, an “awakening”, a “conversion”, a profound feeling of “Eureka”. So people are asking how could it be that one had such a profound feeling and that this feeling not be a true calling? Did I state this correctly? Tom

DaniNZ,

The fact that God can bring good out of evil is something that can astound all of us at times. That he could use an institution rotten at the core as a means of conversion for some people seems like a total contradiction, doesn't it? But it's all part of His gift to us: imagine what a nasty place this world would be if everything tainted by sin were to bring only more evil and suffering to us?

My parents had sex when they were 17. I am the result. I am glad they sinned. No, I don't wish they had been married prior to having sex; I wish they had never married at all (they were a total disaster right from the beginning). If they had not sinned, I would not exist, pure and simple. And how can I NOT be grateful for existing?

In the same way, you can be grateful for the good that God's grace allowed you to have through RC. Yes, the structure is rotten, but God is good. Any good that you received from the RC is because of God's grace, not because of the malicious structure of LC/RC.

I am so grateful that God does not leave us alone, wallowing in the results of our own sins. The fact that He regularly brings good out of all the evil in this world is definitely proof to me that there is a loving God!

Prayers, Anon. I know first-hand the tenuous fragility of life on such terms -- where would we be without knowing God and His firm, healing hand? What mysteries we are party to always and everywhere!

“Any good that you received from the RC is because of God's grace, not because of the malicious structure of LC/RC” Anon, that is great. I would add, the authentic component of our faith can not be corrupted. True conversions are marvelous gifts, and should be allowed to continue to grow and flourish, within God’s help. I will pray for that. Tom

Dani, The final words of C.S. Lewis's Screwtape Proposes a Toast are:

"The fine flower of unholiness can grow only in the close neighbourhood of the Holy. Nowhere do we tempt so successfully as on the very steps of the altar"

Lewis uses the analogy of wine to say that Devil's last resort (the temptation of the Pharisee) is his finest vintage.

God save his soul, but MM and the cancer he unleashed on the Church is one of the devil's best vintages.

But the devil can only pervert. He cannot create. He could pervert MM and the LC, but he could not negate ordination or baptism or any of God's graces.

All through these black years God drew forth good amidst the evil. God willing the dissolution of the LC will harvest the good and heal the evil.

I can find no good that came out of my family's years in R/C

It has taken many years to shake this experience.Actually I think this site has helped me more than any Cult deprogramming I have gone through.

And as I read DaniNZ thoughts I am in the same boat trying to get my brain around all of this.

As a Priest asked me "so what have you learned from all this"????????
I think I am just much MORE careful of everyone.

Something good that did come out of my years in R/C is TOTAL DEPENDANCE ON JESUS not on any Priest or friend but on Him alone.I spend as much time as I can in total silence.

In my own" Dark night of the Soul" when I was deserted and so very isolated after we left R/C I heard these quiet words in my ear "CAST ALL YOUR FEARS AND YOUR WORRIES UPON ME FOR I CARE FOR YOU"

It was the start of my DEEPEST need for Jesus and from than on it has grown.He was there for me all the time but in R/C I was so BUSY I had no time for quiet.

I had SD w/ an LC this morning. We had only spoken briefly months ago. He is new to our Section.

I told him early in our conversation that I had one foot in, one foot out of the Movement. ALL of the LC priests I have ever known have been gentle and generous with me. I've never had much money, so I've had no reason to think I was being played for a donation. Also, only my youngest daughter was ever involved in an RC youth apostolate, and that was only for a few weeks.

The way in which SD has energized and focused me for both personal holiness and an apostolate outside the walls of the church is my "foot in."

I told him I thought MM and his inner circle of LCs was rotten to the core. That's my "foot out."

We had a good SD together. He was humble. He made no attempt to defend MM and little attempt to defend his superiors (o/side of the pre-recorded tape concerning why some things can't be disclosed as quickly as many would like.)

Danitz: The fathers of the 2nd Vatican Council produced a document that reminded all Catholics that our vocation was a universal call to holiness and apostolate.

In today's Cathlic Church, we stumble into very few priests or lay people who seem focused on those two ends. As rotten to the core as MM was, as dysfunctional and diabolic as many of the principles that undergird the LC, they did do some things very well.

Although I do remember some mechanical advice from some of the lesser LCs (like to disparage me when I might miss saying the Angelus), most of the time, they seemed genuinely interested in helping me to deepen my friendship with Jesus.

For real.

So, I've got one foot in, one foot out and I make sure all my friends in both LC and RC understand why one foot is out.


Since all that is is good, one can only conclude that whatever is evil is the perversion or privation of what is, in essence, good.

So I am never surprised that "much good" can apparently come out of so much evil. It's not that God waits to draw "good" out of evil, since evil is nothing. It's that it's always already good.

DanInz (sorry if I mistranscribed that), you are and always already were good. Before your engagement with RC or LC. Everything is made by God. God is good. Everything is good.

So, whence evil?

Evil can only exist if there is already good. It, as many have pointed out, create anything of its own. It can only bend that which is already there.

The question is whether we cooperate with the creative goodness of our Father or bend to the ends of a being that would point that creation toward something other than its origin and end (its alpha and omega).

So, for those of you struggling with the good you received and lived by--do not be surprised:

He knew you before you were formed in the womb and he has counted every hair on your head. Since he calls you to actively cooperate with the graces he freely gives to you, there ought to be no surpirse that you received riches despite the Maciel's malformation. Hold on to these. They are of Christ. Everything else?

Let go.

My life has been profoundly deepened because of my years in RC. Not because of RC spirituality, but because I learned through intense suffering, and feeling like Job on his dungheap, that God never changes -- that He does not betray, that He is near the heartbroken, that the Truth can make one free, indeed. DEAR ONES: NOTHING IS LOST OR WASTED WITH GOD. Just keep praying and talkin, knocking and seeking.

The really really awful thing about the Legion and RC is that they what is really true and beautiful and powerful simply as bait. The real, the true, the beautiful all have their effect, but they are slightly distorted, and they appear to be directly connected to the Legion and RC. If I use food to bait a trap for an animal, the food is still good, and the animal is happy with it and still gets nourished.

And trapped. Fatally. Good call, Mary Ann. Evil cannot achieve its goals without trafficking in good.

Steve,
I think there much more to it than the founder. It is the methodology that he created which somehow causes emotional, spiritual and psychological abuse of sincere human beings seeking God. These things are happening in these present times. I am sure that each member or priest doing his part is oblivious to the damage and each himself may be doing no wrong , but if one continues to build the system he bears some responsibility. And of course not everyone is hurt - and many helped.
There is a woman who will not believe me about Planned Parenthood because she had a medical problem and they were kind and helped her and her family and turned her life around. She heard nothing about abortion or promiscuity ,or birthcontrol from them. So, she will not hear of any damage that they do.
Of course this is not a good analogy, but her reaction really starlted me.
I do not think any individual or LC priest would ever intentionally use the Lord, the Church or people for secondary reasons but I think a flawed methodology can cause that to happen. I love them all and that is why is I am writing this.

I cannot figure this out at all.
I truly believe that Satan is the root of L/C.
It really SCARES me( and I do believe in Jesus Christ.)
It is the MIND control and making everyone THINK the same.
It all reminds me of Adam and Eve and that SLY Snake.He sounded so convincing.
L/C was the perfect picture of Catholic Church.Read Giselles Parallel Church.
WHO COULD MASTERMIND such a plan???????????
"Pray ,Hope, and don't worry" Padre Pio

As I posted years ago, MM was leading people to their destruction by feeding them both good and evil at the same time..."we eat dog and wolf" said the brother as they prepared the food in the kitchen. That hybrid is a jackal.

I went to bed thinking about this and praying that I would be given a little light because it troubles me as well.

I just woke up and remembered the first time I left for college at 17. I had been raised a Catholic with little exposure to the Bible. There was a young man, an ex gang member that had become a christian. He introduced me to a group that got together on Sundays to eat and share the word of God as we ate. I did that instead of going to Mass. I used a protestant bible.

I later went back to the Catholic Church but it was this group of people who sparked in me the interest to read God's word.

Years passed, I married, had 3 kids when we got swept into fundamentalist Methodist church. The preacher and guest speakers used to pound the Catholic Church from the pulpit. Yet this people rekindled my desire to delve into God's word again. After a short while, we went back to the Catholic Church.

Neither of these groups had a Nuestro Pervert as evil as MM that I knew about, but they were just as malformed. Yet God allowed me to experience a deeper conversion each time.

I had a prayer life and lived my Catholic faith well after that, but I missed having a community of believers to share my faith. RC found us and we got swept again. No need to give details here.

I would not go back to any of these groups, I recognized that there is wrong in them. But I am thankful that even there, God allowed me to get a little closer to Him because He knew it was Him I was looking for.

"Seek and you shall find" - I have been looking in 3 wrong places but I am still finding Him. It is his grace.

Thank you all for your wise words and time taken to answer.

Love Christ:

I agree with your assessment of LC methodology, particularly when balanced w/ Mary Ann's and Gregorbo's analyses.

I remember filtering out some of Fr.'s advice in yesterday's SD when it moved into recommending time spent w/ an LC or RC apostolate. I simply ignored it.

I would not commend a "one foot in/one foot out" approach to many people in terms of relating to RC/LC. I'm certainly not recruiting any new RCs. On the other hand, I'm trusting that sharing opinions, doubts and information with LCs and RCs about the stuff I'm reading on the blogs will give them a chance to chew on stuff they wouldn't otherwise chew on. For instance, Fr. either was unaware or pretended to be unaware of the accounts of sex abuse by seminarians from the 1950s that could be found at the REGAIN site. He looked genuinely surprised when I let him know that those accounts had been online for more than a few years.

These men have been thoroughly shielded from any adverse info since they entered seminary. Now they are being hit with it, but at a stilted pace.

I would call that part of yesterday's SD a "teachable moment."

DaniNz: Thanks for getting the ball rolling with the particular thread. You have been seeking the truth and God has been slowly leading you into a fuller knowledge of it with each passing experience.

What a great synthesis this thread has been!

LC/RC as the jackal; Satan as the root of LC/RC; LC/RC's methodology of abuse; the perversion of good by LC/RC; Satan "on the very steps of the altar"; Nuestro Pervert; LC/RC using goodness and truth as bait to trap us like rats!

I find the rat trap analogy especially apt -- it isn't the BAIT that's evil -- it's the jaws of the trap that ensnare and destroy us.

If only Obi-Wan Kenobe had been there to warn us:

"You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious."

A teachable moment indeed!

BTW, did you know that Sir Alec Guinness was a convert to the faith?

P.S. About the trap:

On the other hand, the trap doesn't catch only rats -- LC/RC seems to snare quite a few innocent mice and chipmunks!

Steve,
What concerns me is not so much that the LCs or 3gfs have been shielded from information. I admit that I do not watch the news so much and don't know alot of the evil that goes on in the world. The problem is that the LC and 3 gf are formed in such a way that when they are made aware of the information, it somehow won't make a difference to them. Even to know that lives continue to be ruined by their group won't matter. The only thing that will matter is that the LC continue on and grow. He most likely will be formed to be able to use people, betray trusts, be deceptive but honest with a clear conscience. He will tell himself he is doing everything for Christ.

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