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This should be an interesting thread!

I encourage Legion loyalists to read a few of the comments under the mainstream press stories and then tell us again about the "good fruits" of the Legion and the "great good" they have brought to Christ's church and a few wonderful stories about the Legion's evangelization successes.

I will be on my knees before Our Lord at lunch today praying for the Archbishop to be given copious amounts of courage, fortitude, wisdom, a strong sense of justice. And for protection for him from the diabolical attacks I am sure he will face as the devil makes his last grasp attempts to continue the destruction wrote by his accomplice MM.

"one of the most delicate points in its history".....obviously whoever wrote this article must be aware of the First Great Blessing, which surely would be one of the other "most delicate" points in history.

Wonder how many other orders have "delicate" points such as the special Legion of Christ? I take "delicate" here to mean weak, sickly, and extremely fragile, like a very ill person's condition might be described. Macielistas probably take it to mean "pleasing to the senses" and "generally pleasant" (thank you, Webster!).

I personally want to hold my nose every time I hear the word used to describe this noxious and abusive organization. Nothing delicate at all about the abuse it has heaped upon so many people! I find the antonyms of "delicate" to be much more useful when describing Legion: coarse and crude.

I never was much for Vatican-speak--I'm more into saying it like it is, thus preventing my children from being able to wiggle out of their responsibility in sticky situations with a "But you said......" and "I didn't know that's what you meant! I thought you were saying we were GREAT and that we should keep right on doing what we were doing!!" (not to mention telling their friends that their parents have no clue what they are really up to)as children are wont to do when parents do not clearly spell out what's what and instead keep giving them more rope with vague, diplomatic expressions of closeness and accompaniment. I'm close to you, all right, dear children! Close like a wily fox, accompanying you so that I am fully aware of what you are really up to, those "vicissitudes" you have managed to get yourself into and of which you think I am McGoo-like unaware.

Not surprisingly, my children don't get away with a lot ;) And since they know they won't, they thankfully don't bother trying to get away with much.

The Legion, on the other hand, has had sixty years of free reign and license, more than half a century of getting away with lies, manipulation, abuse and deceit----all while being praised and held up as so much better than their wayward siblings, those other less-desirable orders of priests not nearly as loved by the Vatican since their vocations and cash-intake have been waning for decades, if not centuries. The Legion Macielistas have honed their skills and have supreme confidence in their abilities. I sincerely hope the Vatican's Mr. McGoo days are over in respect to the Legion, but my confidence is sorely shaken.

If the secretaries are thrown under the coming train, and everybody else (Alvaro and All) are praised to high heaven for their good intentions and all the great "good" they have accomplished through their "worthy" mission of Building Kingdom, we'll know Mr. McGoo is alive and well after all.

That the new delegate is "expected to carefully scrutinize the order's finances" is likely the most terrifying line of this whole article for Legionland. No doubt the shredders at Via Aurelia are being sent into overdrive right about now.

I'm waiting for the spin on the new positions Alvaro, Garza, and Sada will hold. Something "emeritus" wouldn't surprise me in the least: places of honor at the next General Chapter. Having them sent packing would probably be a bit too much to hope for as far as the holy Alvaros of the Legion go.

P.S. I do think the fact De Paolis doesn't appear to be into blasphemy and the use of Christ and our faith to raise money is a positive sign. Let's just hope that he recognizes the blasphemy and poisoning of the gospel the beautiful Movement has finessed over the last six decades. And that enough information has escaped the shredder for him to be able to see exactly how this outfit used religion to accumulate their 30 billion euros over the past few decades.

I am ashamed that my first reaction is cynical: a moneyman was chosen so that he can find all the money squirreled away and get some of it in exchange for leniency on other issues. I have seen it happen before. Let's Make a Deal. Sorry, I will go pray now.

Agree with the comments above.

And I don't want to hear about the delegate being "pastoral". Grown men and women who have abused their positions of trust as members of a Catholic organization and have used the Church for their selfish ends do not need "pastoral" care. They need tough love, especially the first part.

Like the example of Cynical's children, they need to have their toys taken away and to be grounded for the indefinite future -- probably forever. That's if they are not subject to criminal charges, in which case they may not get to contemplate their sins by the seashore, like their infamous "founder".

Let's see if the Vatican, through this person, can serve the Church by showing that her leaders have the guts to shut down this sick and twisted outfit.

What is of note is this is simply under appointments on the Vatican site, and it does not therefore elaborate much, nor does it name vice-delegates. My guess is this is just for the Archbishop to now publicly put his affairs in order for his successor to his old post, and transition to the new one.

The real program will not really launch until September. What will be interesting will be any leaks as to its nature by Sandro, et. al. It's the summer though, North African heat sweeps into the zone- everyone is heading out of Rome.

Ah yes,

The summer palaces have all been aired out, readied by the servants so that the Princes of the Church can be cool as cucumbers for the next two months.

No matter that innocent children are being recruited into Legion's apostolic schools even as we speak.

I guess it's too hot for anybody in Italy--or anywhere else--to give a flying hoot about that. Safety and well-being of children never has appeared to be of much importance to the hierarchs, except insofar as some lip service to it allows the Institution to look better to the public.

(mary ann, I think I need to come pray right along with you)

Cynical-- the whole country shuts down (I made the mistake of visiting during the period once!)

Of course, they have no AC there......And Italy has been known to harbor Malaria.....

The Vatican Radio on the appointment finished off with:
The Vatican said the visitation highlighted three primary requirements: The need to "redefine the charism" of the Legionaries of Christ, the need to revise the exercise of authority in the order and the need to preserve the enthusiasm and missionary zeal of younger members through adequate formation.


From the Vatican's viewpoint, the situation is clear. There is no charism (must be redefined.) It's a cult (the authority problems). The priests have not received adequate formation.

BUT they cannot order you not to put your kids in Conquest. That is YOUR responisibility. As primary educator of your kids, YOU need to read the documentation, make judgement calls, exercise prudence and PROTECT YOUR KIDS.

This is YOUR JOB, not the Vatican's.

At this point, any parent who enrolls their kids in the "Maciel Young Pioneers" is culpable. The evidence is there. The Vatican cannot force you to act on the evidence.

Innocent children are being recruited because THEIR PARENTS are pushing them into these schools and sending them to these camps.

The pope doesn't say that you can't send your kids to Pius V society summer camp either! But you know your shouldn't!

And some people do anyway and find crazy ways to justify it, because, at the end of the day, being a schismatic is kind of a rush... what with the secret knowledge of freemasons in the vatican, the sense you're better than the average Catholic sheeple... heck, even the bishops have fallen to the secret fifth columnist lies, but you, YOU have the truth! And heck, maybe little Ambrose can grow up to be the next Nebraskan pope! He has leadership potential. Father Pius-X-Society-Is_too-close-to Rome told me so!!!!!

THE VATICAN doesn't have the power to save your friends and their children. Only Grace does. So pray. But don'y begrudge an 80 year old man a trip to the mountains to finish his book. The Church is HUGE. The Legion is TINY. And every week, it gets smaller, and fringier, and less important.

Sometimes slow deliberation is more effective than a swift blow. Good discipline takes time, and requires a huge effort from the one giving the discipline.....

Too true, cynical. C'mon over. We can read today's Gospel: "I am sending you as sheep in the midst of wolves." Excuse me, but no matter how serpently clever or dovishly innocent a sheep is, if it is in midst of wolves, it is going to be eaten. Never struck me with such force as today.

BTW-- since Paoli is now officially in charge, shouldn't all the moms who had problems with the Apostolic schools contact him?

Excellent point, Deirdre; the Catholic Church teaches that parents are the primary formators for their children. We were faced with parish, diocesan, and papal support for Challenge, but we did our research and decided it just wasn't worth the risk to our daughters (and of course, the RC members' vicious reaction only confirmed our suspicions).

"This is YOUR JOB, not the Vatican's.

At this point, any parent who enrolls their kids in the "Maciel Young Pioneers" is culpable. The evidence is there. The Vatican cannot force you to act on the evidence.

Innocent children are being recruited because THEIR PARENTS are pushing them into these schools and sending them to these camps."

Agreed, but is it too much to ask that the Vatican give the parents a hand here? With the Visitators ordaining LCs left and right (and I do understand the reasons for doing so), I can understand why trusting parents (sheep?) are willing to keep giving this order of priests the chance to form their children.

I mean, the Vatican wouldn't ordain these men, sending them out fulfill the mission of Legion (and forming children is definitely an integral part of that mission!), if it was unsafe for our children, right??!! It's not like the Vatican ordained these men with any caveats.....no, the newly ordained might very well be on their way to fulfilling the order of their superior to go help Father Syren on his recruiting expeditions.

Nothing has been said by the Vatican about stopping the recruitment, and ordinations are in full swing.

I can understand why parents (especially parents who have experienced such great things at the hands of Legion and think nothing more than that their founder had a few issues, but hey! the Vatican's got that covered) still think its all right to entrust their children to this order.

I don't, obviously. But I don't think free thought has exactly been encouraged in our Church for the past few decades I've been alive. Do you? If it has been, I guess I missed it (I was raised in a very traditional/authoritarian household, so it is very possible I missed the encouragement of such debate---as far as I ever knew growing up, any such debate was evil being introduced into the Church by dissenters).

It seems to me that those who have been praised and rewarded by the Vatican in recent decades are the ones who have towed the party line. I honestly sometimes wonder if the Vatican doesn't believe we already know everything there is to know, and the days of saints and theologians vigorously arguing theological points and interpretations of Church documents/teachings are long gone.

It seems to me the Church attitude is that we already know all Truth there is to be known--all that's left is some tweaking here and there. Nothing more to argue about---towing of the line is de rigeur. If anybody raises a different thought, they are dissenters to be squelched--or the ignorant to be instructed.

I've always been of a "conservative" (for lack of a better word) mindset, but I have to say that at this point, I'd like to see some lively debate and fresh air in the Church, even if I might thoroughly and vigorously disagree with the presented theory. At least faithful Catholics would then perhaps recognize it's okay to think for themselves and disagree with hierarchs and Popes (respectfully, of course).

I doubt I'm the only one raised in the post-conciliar Church by a family trying to counter-act all the banners and guitars, raised to think just about everything JPII did or said was Good. And anybody disagreeing with him was Bad. (until certain members of the family became so very trad that they then decided JPII was evil incarnate (thus really fracturing the family)---but that's a different part of the story lol)

I'm not blaming this all on the institutional Church--we are all responsible for our own behavior, in the end. But it sure would be nice to get a little guidance as to how the lay people are really supposed to behave in the Church.

Is that too much to ask for? Or is the institutional Church so deeply entrenched in clericalism that all we can ever expect to hear from them are pronouncements we are just expected to enthusiastically follow, just because they said so?

I know quite a few Catholics who have gone from defending the Church vigorously from its "enemies" to realizing those "enemies" were actually right about quite a few of the problems present within the Church. Pendulum-swinging is generally not a good thing. But I'm seeing more and more of it from people who once trusted the Church on every little detail who now don't trust much of anything from the hierarchy.

Some teaching about what obedience in the Church really means would be a good thing, I think. I can't help but wonder if Maciel's Legion got away with sixty years of distortion of it because the Catholic Church at large has a fundamentally mistaken notion of obedience these days and the role of the lay people within the Church.

Maryann, please tell me your place is air-conditioned! I'm only up for so much mortification today ;)

"Wonder how many other orders have "delicate" points such as the special Legion of Christ? I take "delicate" here to mean weak, sickly, and extremely fragile, like a very ill person's condition might be described. Macielistas probably take it to mean "pleasing to the senses" and "generally pleasant" (thank you, Webster!)."

To be precise, in Macielese the word "delicate" actually means "exquisite". (Eg "Delicate Charity", one of MM's favorite catch-phrases). No doubt to the die-hards this is yet another "exquisite" point in their history.

No need for the PTB to spin this one - this time they can quote straight from the news source as the word's meaning has already been twisted.

I can see your point, cynical. By agreeing to ordain to any level of holy orders, someone is signing off on these men as "spiritually fit." I am as sad as the next man to think that they have waited upwards of 15 years for the diaconate (outrageous) but on the flip side, to ordain says that they are "well formed." Ummm. There is a mixed message in here somewhere.

In RC,

Thanks for the language clarification!

Honestly, I think that an English/Legion dictionary (as well as a Spanish/Legion, Portueguese/Legion, etc, etc, etc) dictionary is in order---that way we could all understand what they really mean when they say the words ;)

I'll get to it as soon as I'm done with my The Marcial Maciel Code blockbuster (to be quickly followed by the sequel Angels and Legion, of course). Wonder if Ron Howard can convince Archbishop Paolis to let him use the churches in Rome for the filming of my movie?? After all, this time the movie will be all about spreading the truth about who really turned the gospels on their head to poison the faith!

As for me, I would prefer Maciel the vampire. Peter Vere told us awhile back that some of the original vampire folklore concerned priests who had fallen into apostosay. So this one has the added benefit of restoring the vampire to it's rightful - and evil - place in our literature. Much more interesting than "Twilight"!

I can throw a few vampires in for good measure.

The only problem I can see with that element is that there would still be those Lucrecias of the world falling madly in love with Maciel the Apostate Blood-Sucker and his ilk just because all those Legion priests made in his image (remember Flora Barrigan's comment about how when she sees a Legion priest, she sees Maciel--because they all look like him and have adopted Nuestro Padre's mannerisms?) still make such great eye candy (and are doing so very much "good" in the world)!!

I thought he was ugly as sin myself. Especially as he grew older---his face looked positively (and most definitely appropriately!) goat-like.

Deidre: Thanks very much for your comments on the previous thread and this one.

Commenting on the 'update' regarding the financial wizardry of De Paolis:

I do not think this part of his resume is there to simply find the money scams of the LC. That in fact could have been carried out by appointing a forensic accountant to De Paolis, who would in turn go over all the books. This Delegate has those credentials, because they need not only a financial investigator but rather a decision maker for one or more of the following reasons:

1) The order is going to have all of its asset base re-organized and re-structured to follow what: a total re-organization of its governance and life. Hence this is indicating what is coming is not mere window dressing.

2) There are many pending abuse claims, and a tough decision maker will need to be in place to settle them in a judicious and impartial manner.

3) There are two vice-delegates still pending which as I have mentioned elswhere means they expect to go deep and to be ready to handle any need for dissolution and downsizing.

The news has already brought out the fact that De Paolis is in his own way an expert in all the canonical and juridical elements of religious life, IE. how the law and rule must receive a charism. He is a prestigious canon law professor, and he is a religious too, so with all this, one cannot conclude he is just a money man.

What I do not see in De Paolis, is a visionary-type in the order of spirituality as such (in the good sense of that term) , which means he will not be bringing a new vision of spirituality to the LC, will not fix the spiritual founder/father image, he only can but appoint a spirituality- other founder-saints etc.. to it, at most and see if it takes. The LC will therefore be on their own to prove they can do that, ie. reconstitute a credible core once purified, and complete it with all that makes up the soul of any healthy order- missing nothing.

Deirdre,

Yes, I wonder when exactly De Poalis was/will be given the reins (the quoted articles speaks in future terms--"will take the reins")? Does he have complete control, in the here and now? Are Alvaro&Co still furtively engaged in back-room planning and manipulating (I suspect they will be as long as they are breathing and can put the initials LC behind their names)?

Who makes the decisions today, this very day? Who is in control? Has the amount of control given to the Delegate even been defined yet? I know there was some talk in the beginning about whether he would have complete control or would be in more of a "guidance" kind of position.

Do we know for sure? Will the current PTB have all summer still holding the reins, still shredding and scheming, manipulating and disseminating deceit?

Oh, to be a fly on the wall in Via Aurelia this weekend, even if it is hot as hades there right now!

"What I do not see in De Paolis, is a visionary-type in the order of spirituality as such (in the good sense of that term) , which means he will not be bringing a new vision of spirituality to the LC, will not fix the spiritual founder/father image, he only can but appoint a spirituality- other founder-saints etc.. to it, at most and see if it takes. The LC will therefore be on their own to prove they can do that, ie. reconstitute a credible core once purified, and complete it with all that makes up the soul of any healthy order- missing nothing."

Commentator, it sounds like De Paolis is the right guy for the job at hand - which is to begin and oversee the process of purification. No founder, he. Good. Hopefully even the top LC guys can't spin this one to make it so.

"The only problem I can see with that element is that there would still be those Lucrecias of the world falling madly in love with Maciel the Apostate Blood-Sucker and his ilk just because all those Legion priests made in his image"

Cynical, unfortunately there are always going to be weird female groupies. Even Dracula had his entourage of vampire babes. This would be no exception.

Truth IS stranger than fiction.

De Paolis is a religious priest, an expert canonist, and no fool when it comes to finance.
Moreover, to date he has had no involvement with the LC, and hence is not compromised in any way.
The profile is perfect.
Now we'll just have to wait and see.

As far as his role and authority are concerned, as Delegate, he will act with the authority of the Pope (that is paraphrase of the earliest media reports from Rome regarding what a "Delegate" is and how he will operate).

I'm with Mike--he's the right man for the job.

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