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But they're NOT integrated into the world!!!!! So how are they 'healthy?"

Sigh. I don't think the Vatican gets it....

Is he receiving/responding to testimonies that illustrate that life on the inside is not healthy?

What about the many women who have left and suffered breakdowns and struggle with lingering depression?

This is like the letter to the LC all over again.

Kind of feels like Groundhog Day. Just a day early.

Time to go public in a massive way with, say, an open letter in a newspaper of record.

"We could ask him questions about the living of our promises, our charism, our mission DURING A MEAL with him."

Am I splitting hairs here or is one meal the proper place and span of time to discuss promises, charisms and missions with 200 women? It seems the rest of the time was spent by Blasquez talking AT the women. There should be 200 interviews going on. Are there?

What gets me is that, yes, the Church has said on multiple occasions that Consecrated Laity living in the world are a good thing.

But they mean, for instance, a doctor who leads an active professional life, interacts with his non-christian colleagues, goes to conferences, weighs in on professional ethics issues, etc.

NOT the 3gf. They're not integrated with the world, they're integrated with the Legion. They don't go outside the bubble. They're like cloistered nuns without the emphasis on contemplation.

A true 'consecrated laywoman' would, for instance, be able to visit her family. She'd see interactions with the world not as a DANGER to her vocation, but as the whole point-- she would be working to bring this radical witness of consecrated life to places where it was a completely alien concept.

Argh. Argh. Argh.

THIS is why the Bishops who have misgivings need to make their remarks public.

The LC/RC have no qualms about cherrypicking your remarks and broadcasting the positive bits to the world while ignoring and circumventing the negative bits.

If you want honesty, you'll have to publically announce the WHOLE PLAN and the WHOLE VISION. If you want to curtail activities in the diocese, you're going to need to publish it in EVERY SINGLE BULLITIN and have it read from the pulpits at Mass and splashed across the front page of the Diocesan paper.

Your policies are meaningless if they are secret--because the LC will NOT abide by them, and you won't see what's happening until you're smacked with a lawsuit.

We have to remember the Archbishop's sole mission was to be a cheerleader. If he cast serious doubt on the future he would have been outside the parameters of his task.

Bad Health is understood when 1/2 have left the other 1/2 are at each others throats. I suppose the LC/RC world will settle into bland pan-Christology moved via a control-based system, and never really come to be a spirituality based charism through some genuine process of re-foundation. I say control because where a convicting charism of depth is absent the more authority/control has to take its place to acquire a sense of the group spread out all over the universe.

When will it all end? When a diocesan driven spiritual renewal process lands in the ordinary parish that includes retreats etc.. that overtakes and passed the corporate offering of LC inc... Additionally certain mainline religious orders who have tremendous assets in their patrimony will eventually rebound and like offer more genuine approaches to religious life. At that point little need will be found for LC inc.

200 is a lot, but not all. I'm sure the ones selected to go were not the ones with all the good questions.

i am consecrated and was a part of the visitation! It was all of us working here in the US... He will continue to visit the other countries where all the others will participate (observer)! Actually the ones who asked questions were not select consecrated with their heads in the clouds, but ones who do see things quite clearly. They were uncomfortable questions, VERY direct, very applicable. We expressed openly our hurts and wounds... The archbishop was very attentive and responded directly to the issues brought up. It was not at all like you are presenting it here. The very issues that make you tick, Deidra, were and are being addressed. The fact is that it will take time. The visitation is not for him to be a cheerleader, but to listen to us, put together the common denominators, and present a report to the pope. I spoke with him personally about my personal frustrations and difficulties... and he totally understood and even gave me some suggestions of steps I can take. Friends, this is not a loss cause. It is not the way you are seeing it. Change- yes. Obliteration- no.

Hoo boy;
I really hope dePaolis pointed out that it's a sin to blab SD, especially if you're allowing your directees to mistakenly believe that their confidences will be confidential. o_O

Our daughter is consecrated with RC. She was one of the ones who did get to talk one on one with the Apostolic Visitator. Unfortunately, we do not feel that she fully understands the problems of the RC/LC. From what we understand, some things like extending home visits, lightening up their schedules and possibly changing some of their tactics on recruiting might be on the table. However, after talking to many former consecrated, the problems run much deeper. It seems that only after a consecrated leaves this lifestyle can they see the manipulative tactics and brainwashing techniques that are used in the methodolgy of the movement. Our concern as parents is the methodolgy of the movement is not being addressed. The Apostolic Vistitator really needs to speak to the numerous women who left RC consecrated life and their families.

Parent,

With regard to your suggestion about the need to speak to the women who have left this lifestyle -- with all due respect to the Apostolic Visitator -- duh!

This is completely off topic - my apologies. What has anyone heard about the "healing Mass" at Pinecrest (PA) two weeks ago? I've been trying to research and read everything I can find, but have found nothing and have no peace on this.

Apparently a young non-Catholic man from Chicago who has recently received the stigmata (yes you read that right) came to Atlanta to pray over a dying man (who has since passed God rest his soul). He was asked by RC faithful to offer a service at PA since he happened to be in town. He agreed and people were invited to a "special afternoon of prayer and testimony." I know many people who attended felt profoundly moved (many supposedly literally moved off their feet) when they approached him for a blessing. (He's not a priest, religious or even Catholic). Literally everyone talked about how the light shining on the statue of Mary alone and where the statue of Joseph would be (if they could afford it) showed God's presence. People say miracles happened at Pinecrest that day.

Call me a doubting Thomas but .... Stigmata? Healing people? Does the Church know? How about the Atlanta Archbishop? It seems way too convenient to have a non-Catholic man with a "doctor documented" stigmata seeking guidance and spiritual direction from the legion showing up at a legion school performing miracles of healing. Can you just hear the PR spin now, "See God loves us so much he put this living saint in our midst to show the world that we really ARE special. But we are so humble we're keeping it quiet."

I have heard the young man in question does not want publicity because he is trying to make sense of it all. Supposedly he is 27, has a Russian mafia dad & he got caught in something illegal and prayed to receive a short prison sentence. If he did he would give his life to God. He got two months instead of 20 years and the five wounds of the stigmata.

I often wonder, if Christ was in my midst today wouldI recognize him? Would I condemn him like the pharisees did? I have a natural skepticism, and God please forgive me if I am wrong on this one, but it just does not make sense. Then you add the legion aspect ... and terrible thoughts have been running through my mind.

Anon2020, you took the word right out of my mouth.

Um...Glad--- there have been lots of false stigmatics. And the devil, as well has God, can cause shining lights and 'knocking off feet.'

Seriously, this is one of those 'raise major alarms' situations, IMO.

Or, as one of my friends likes to say "Private revelation is called that because YOU ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE GIVING CONFERENCES AND PUTTING ON SHOWS! It's PRIVATE!"

In general, it's good to be leery of signs and wonders that haven't been approved. The vast majority of them are simply tricks or demonic. We have the one Sign and Wonder we need in the Eucharist.

And even if the LC fathers thought this was a good idea, we know the 'discerning spirits' part of their formation was.... a bit neglected... since they hailed the founder as a living saint.....

if it helps--

Will you guys get to go on retreat with other orders and meet with actual consecrated laywoman (i.e., ones who've gone through the normal channels) to see how your life differs from theirs and what the actual formulation (as opposed to Maciel's "Slave labor") looks like?

Are your superiors undergoing training/education/etc. in the proper roles of conscience and authority in community life?

If you're serious about renewal and refounding, I think you need to start doing some intense research-- because part of the problem is that Maciel, his lieutenants, and his chosen leaders in the 3gf frequently LIED about how other groups do things. Before you can chart a course, you're going to need to get a sense of the map and where you all fall on it....


if,

In the discussions, was the topic raised of what "consecration" actally is and the fact that the term does not apply to you and your colleagues?

And please understand, without taking offense, that we cannot take for facts what you have said (people who spoke were ones who "do see things quite clearly", "very issues...are being addressed", "visitation is not for him to be a cheerleader" and -- of course -- "not a lost cause") -- on your say-so alone. Not because we think you are lying, necessarily, but because -- and again, nothing against you personally -- the reglegcorp "(de)formation" has altered your perceptions.


Good point Deirdra. I, and many of us are doing intense studies of the Church documents on consecrated life in the Church.
I don't need to leave this life to see that there are serious things that need to be addressed... that methods previously used... formation (or deformation) was not helpful in some aspects. I see it. many of us see it.
superiors... some will need to be removed (many)... I think we are looking very much at the proper role of the conscience and authority. Perhaps (as in my case), it takes time to recognize it... the superiors are loving women who have learned this incorrect way. So, once you get past thier good intentions, you are able to see the truth in the error. I guess it's taking some longer than others to see.
Anyway, this isn't lip service. I hear you. I just want you to know we're moving toward that.
-will sign off for now lest I upset.

Oh, and Anon... there were quite a few former consecrated who came to the visitation to speak with the archbishop. I spoke with them, and believe me, they did not guard thier words. Many letters were sent as well (according to the ones I am in touch with.)

if,

Don't leave yet -- if you are sincere, please consider that you -- and many other vulnerable young women -- are being used as part of a sales team for solely material ends -- please pray about this issue -- I know it sounds harsh, but if you seek the truth -- I think this is it.

Anon 2020 and Mary Ann, it is no wonder more families do not speak out on this blog when they get responses like yours.

Parent,

The comment was not addressed to you, but to the fact that the official should have made a statement that he would be seeking information from women who have left the movement -- not leaving the issue in doubt.

Your comment was very insightful.

anon... to answer your comment directly to me. no offense taken. i understand, but it saddens me that you'd disregard me as a mindless, brainwashed, Maciel Minion... but well, I can't do much about that. I honestly wish you could have been there! all of you! it was refreshing for me to hear the problems dealt with so frankly and openly. at the same time it was difficult to see the damage done to many of us. Nevertheless, i saw steps forward.
As regards your comment about us not being consecrated, many have brought that up. Yes, it was addressed. I don't really know how to begin explaining it here... it is quite technical and yet clear to me that we are consecrated to Jesus. It is a new form of consecrated life... but anyway, i don't think you're interested :)

It struck me that Annon2020 assumes that 'If it helps' is a young woman. It has been speculated here in the past that a large proportion of the 3gf are young. What happens to the veterans is no doubt of interest. If it helps, I'm curious to know what the average age of the 3gfs is and what accounts for those demographics. Is the Archbishop aware of the turnover?

If it helps,

Thank you for having the courage to come by and post your experiences thus far. The very fact you have the ability to go online to a site like this is encouraging (hope that nobody is keeping track of the sites you visit, you seriously might want to watch your back).

I am genuinely curious about how the Consecrated feel about the fact Alvaro, Garza, and Sada, who admit to knowing Maciel was a fraud back in 2005, are still in their seats of power and control in the Legion?

I personally was incredibly offended when I found out that Alvaro&Co knew Maciel was a fraud in 2005, continued to declare him innocent like Jesus Christ and call his victims enemies, liars, and malcontents, announced his ascension into Heaven when he died in 2008, and continued to scandalize the children by having them perform skits of his life, venerate his photos, and read and absorb his works right up to February 2009, when they were finally forced to admit Maciel was a liar, and finally, a hardened criminal of the worst kind.

How can you continue on when these men who perpetrated this fraud upon us (at the very least from 2005 on, although who knows how long they really knew about Maciel---it is quite clear they SHOULD have known about him for decades, given his debauched and self-indulgent lifestyle as witnessed by a multitude of LCs who lived around him) are still the ones in authority over you? How are women on the inside resolving this gross abuse?

I pray for your well-being and peace during what must be a very difficult time for you. God bless.

One thing that is obvious from reading the posts on this thread is that the imposition of secrecy by the Church as well as by leg/reg creates confusion and hard feeling. Family members and loved ones have a right to know what is going on but the Church has built a wall of secrecy. The statements provided by Cardinals Rode and DePaolis so far have made it seem that the Vatican and the Pope just adore them and really approve of everything they do including their charism. There seems to be a wall between the ex members / outside critics / victims and the visitators and commissioner. The leg/reg members on the inside are sheltered from the truth and constantly recharged with new propaganda that gives a false message that everything is great.
So it is not surprising that people don't have a common understanding of what is really going on.
I think that the issue of secrecy is important. It was secrecy that enabled bad elements within the Church to avoid dealing with the molestation of children.
Secrecy made it possible for the first investigation during the "great blessing" to enable MM to continue his house of horrors and now secrecy is still able to derail the reform process.
Thanks to Giselle some people are able to find out some of the truth.

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