I am taking Aaron's latest comment (with a little editing) as a new jumping off point, since it ties in with the staggering hypocrisy inherent to the latest scandal: The Legion's enthusiastic promotion of a priest (a moral theologian who writes about knowing right from wrong) while knowing that he was engaged in grave sin. He knew it, they knew it, and the Papal Delegate knew it -- and yet his visibility remained until called out by the secular media.
I believe very strongly - and have for a long time - that LCs are seriously deformed.
Their conscience is compromised, and this has very serious consequences: LCs idea of right and wrong is all contained in books and it is all goverend by the LC maxim: with permission you can do anything.
They infer that something is wrong simply because it is done without permission.
There is an abdication of the individual in deciding whether something is moral or not: the answer is to be found sometimes in a book -- but usually through the decision of a superior.
As a superior you get to decide what is right and wrong for your subjects, this relativistic decision making also allows you to permit yourself exceptions.
I am finding it hard to express clearly what is wrong, but basically the LC breaks that part of us that knows between right and wrong, that part we - dare i say it - feel even as kids...
In that regard there is no such thing as a good LC. Everybody's conscience is compromised.
When we leave the Legion we can still have an element of this - indeed it is hard to fix. That is why some exlcs may seem insensitive, or perhaps desensitised.
Empathy and sympathy are difficult, and sometimes faked, other times simply numbly ignored.
Hopefully the real world, and regaining family ties etc help restore this deformation, but it is difficult and not automatic.
I know an exLC who would listen to my sympathetically, and then go on holiday with my abuser, enjoying his company.
I suspect that some exLC have no hesitation in reporting back to former superiors what they see or hear that may affect the Legion - the habit of spying/reporting etc is hard to shake off - we feel our egos rewarded. They don't care if this means a huge betrayal of trust, in fact the juicier the betrayal the more important they will feel.
The Legion of christ does not simply take advantage of its members, it changes them. It has a very terrible sense of morality: the ends ALWAYS justify the means, anything can be done with permission.
This is obvious with Thomas Williams. That he had affairs and a child is little biscuits compared to his profile. The only problem here is that he GOT CAUGHT.
I'm sure there was probably relief that he was not fiddling with the boys... it may have been a indication of even greater confidence...
WHEN will it be shut?
Amen to the last. I can speak to sharing this sense even from being a rank-and-file RC member. Any rumbling of conscience was quelled with reminders of the pope's approval -- and whether true or not, that papal endorsement was given to any number of particular initiatives, which we were to promote and support no matter what.
Even along the way, the L/R membership has looked to the Magisterium to lead them -- with the appointment of a delegate understood to be a "sign of support," and with the ongoing reform being sold as a reason to stay. This is the point that I tried to make (however lamely) at the end of the interview, when the woman asked why the Pope won't shut this group down. I tried to explain that even if the Church never shut down the Legion (which would be disappointing) it cannot shut down our common sense:
- just because it exists, we don't have to remain in it;
- just because they continue to recruit doesn't mean we need to hand over our children;
- just because various pastors give them authority doesn't mean we have to join their apostolates (or refrain from speaking out in truth);
- just because they say they are reforming doesn't mean we cannot criticise them;
- just because they remind us of ongoing approval doesn't mean we have to like the group;
- just because they profess charity doesn't mean we approve of their behaviour;
- just because superiors offer guidance doesn't mean it needs to be followed (when it contradicts what remains of conscience);
- just because a Legion writes a book on morality doesn't mean it's a reliable guide.
I think all readers have pondered obedience and Magisterial limitations over the years -- so that our understanding has greatly matured in a Catholic sense (I know that I have, in order to salvage my faith!) This shallow, lock-step conformity has passed itself off as Catholicism for decades, when it has been nothing but a charade. God reigns, the Church is true, and we cherish the deposit of faith -- but authentic human freedom allows for us to shred this nonsense and to look for a better use of human reason, which God gave us so that we might serve him in dignity.
To that end, we must call out the Legion for its deformation of conscience, and beg the Church -- with or without the help of the Papal Delegate -- to bring this group into conformity with the Truth.
I'm going to continue a thought process I started with my previous comment on an earlier thread (see below). I was surmising that just as the Legion presents itself as "Christ", they may also have confused the minds of so many devout Catholic women to view themselves as "another New Eve" if they hand over their sons. Any such confusion is the result of Legion malformation stemming from the debauched founder and his narcissistic personality. (the fact that he tried to get his mom canonized using language comparing her to Mary only underscores this point).
Now to go one step further - LC malformation equates the suppression of personal conscience with perfect obedience to the will of God - in fact, with perfect unity of will between God and His Son. The thinking has to be something like: Jesus conformed his will to His Father's, as Christians we are called to conform our will to Christ's, the Legion is a manifestation of Christ in the Church - therefore all who are called to the Legion must conform their will to that of the Legion.
It's all about unity - so they say.
Posted by: It's the Duplicity, Stupid | May 20, 2012 at 01:11 PM
(From an earlier thread):
"Here's a question - the RC moms with sons in the Legion are so ga-ga about becoming the mother of a priest that I'm wondering whether the LC encourages an unhealthy playing-up of the Blessed Mother so that these moms have a confused image of themselves as "the new Eve" just as their sons have a confused image of themselves as "another Christ".
Recall that when the Legion put forth Mama Maurita's cause for canonization the language was just a tad bizarre - they were describing another Blessed Mother. Pete Vere had a posting on his blog a few years ago about this. Given the Legion's other malformed ideas, the possibility that ALL eligible RC moms are thrown this bone to keep the pressure on the son to join up does not seem out of the realm of possibilities.
Looking to Mary as the perfect model for our lives as moms and wives is appropriate and good. Pretending we are "another New Eve" would seem a bit twisted.
Posted by: It's the Duplicity, Stupid | May 20, 2012 at 12:56 PM "
Posted by: It's the Duplicity, Stupid | May 20, 2012 at 01:13 PM
If they have no conscience -- what do they examine before Confession?
Posted by: HonestyPlease | May 20, 2012 at 01:20 PM
I love your analysis, dear Aaron. I will put it on my own blog, once translated.
I remember when I was in the novitiate, my instructor told us that Maciel's main contribution to the doctrinal patrimony of the Church, would certainly be his famous letter on the formation of conscience ... sic.
Posted by: Xavier | May 20, 2012 at 01:34 PM
Great Xavier. Sic and sick.
BTW there were members in my section who were convinced that Maciel would become a doctor of the Church.
Posted by: It's the Duplicity, Stupid | May 20, 2012 at 01:42 PM
This is a good opportunity to post a great commentary on the subject of conscience and obedience by Nathan O'Halloran, SJ:
http://underachindolea.blogspot.com/2009/02/jesuit-obedience-and-legionaries-of.html
Posted by: It's the Duplicity, Stupid | May 20, 2012 at 01:52 PM
"The Legion's enthusiastic promotion of a priest (a moral theologian who writes about knowing right from wrong) while knowing that he was engaged in grave sin. He knew it, they knew it, and the Papal Delegate knew it -- and yet his visibility remained until called out by the secular media."
Just curious if any current LC or RC are reading this and if they can give insight on what they think about this statement. I have been exRC for almost 3 years and this new scandal has sent me backwards again in my healing. I have had to work hard to move forward and rebuild my faith and trust after the Maciel scandal and especially the day I realized that the LC leaders had knowledge of Maciel and continued to dupe their own people for the sake of the institution. It was that letter of Fr Alvaro in March, 2008 that God put before me on my computer without looking that made me realize that Fr A was calling Maciel an example for us all and going to heaven when he KNEW Maciel's double life. My heart fell to the ground.
The hardest thing was when I brought it forth to my RC sisters and LC priests, they did not see that as wrong and justified it. One priest finally called it a "mistake" but noone wanted to talk about the fact that it was gravely wrong for Fr Alvaro to lead us in a lie when he knew of Maciel's sins. Just as I think again that it is gravely wrong that the LCs/RCs and the Catholic world for that matter were duped again by those who knew of Fr Williams sin and allowed him to be the poster boy for Moral Theology and US spokesperson for the LC.
I think Aaron has some excellent points on conscience. As hard as it was to leave RC since there were so many people and priests that I loved and cared about - it literally was ripping my conscience out that everyone in thought what Fr Alvaro did was OK and did not call him on it.
I am with Giselle - we have a moral responsibility as brothers and sisters in Christ to call each other out on this stuff.
Someone in LC or RC - please respond and "call us out" here at LARC if you think that what Aaron explained and Giselle posted is wrong.
Posted by: Anon out of RC | May 20, 2012 at 01:58 PM
This discussion remind me the personal testimony I gave two years ago to REGAIN where I had written the following passage:
Men build their moral judgment progressively, mostly during their childhood and their adolescence. How do they form this judgment? Quite simply, by exercising it. One of the most delicate parental tasks is to accompany the child along this process which leads to autonomy. It consists of giving advice, examples and sometimes reproaches—but most of all the freedom to make mistakes. Through the experiences of their own mistakes (and successes) children discover, step by step, how to adapt the principles of morality to the complexity of reality.
They understand, progressively, that “the end does not justify the means,” or to be more precise, that some means are better “suited” to some ends, because there is a natural relationship between the means and the ends—with the result that choosing some means rather than others provides a “testimony” that we are indeed looking for the best end. Sometimes it happens that the best end—taking account of the complex reality and of other principles of morality (as for instance the fact that people cannot be used as mere means)—cannot be fulfilled immediately. A good moral judgment consists in being able to choose the best means. Good ends and good intentions are not enough, and as we say in French: l'enfer est pavé de bonnes intentions (“the road to Hell is paved with good intentions”).
But now, the drama of the Legionary formation—and above all in the apostolic schools—is that the children are in a system where they do not have the ability to exercise and form moral judgments, since they are asked to follow a rhythm of activities that does not allow them to do that. In this setting, the discernment process of “means-ends” is simply short-circuited.
At the same time, the excess of religious activities—meditations, Masses, rosaries, conscience exams, spiritual readings, spiritual direction, etc.—compel them to turn their look exclusively toward the end: the Kingdom of Christ. This is similar to the blinkers we put on horses, allowing them to look in one direction only. But this end is presented to them in such a dramatic and urgent way that it creates in their mind an existential anxiety. The mission to save the world against the enemies of the Church becomes an oppressive reality. Freedom towards their vocation is simply crushed: and that is not according to the will of God.
And as a result, they lose touch with reality, accepting many aspects of the methodology that are indeed totally immoral: the use of seduction and lies to recruit children for the Apostolic Schools, the classification of possible benefactors according to their means, etc. Another consequence is that they are willing to do anything to protect and defend the Legion. It is so shocking to think that these people, who look so nice and kind in their perfect world, could be so violent and heartless when they face unexpected threats against the Legion.
If the morality of our actions deals much more with means than ends -even if, as I have explained, there is a natural relationship between means and ends, so that if we choose bad means, it means that we are indeed not looking for the good end- it appears to me that what makes a man an adult is precisely his ability to distinguish correctly among the means—the good ones and the bad ones. Sometimes it happens that to go from A to B we need to pass through C and D.
Posted by: Xavier | May 20, 2012 at 02:17 PM
@AooRC: thanks for the reminder on a good foundational point. The ranking superior is on record as lying, since he perpetuated the MM myth while sharing vigil at the deathbed with MM's mistress. Can dePaolis explain why Corcuera is still in authority?
@Xavier: any idea how we can get a hold of that letter in English (or any language, for that matter)?
Posted by: giselle | May 20, 2012 at 02:20 PM
Dear Aaron and all ex-LC:
Thank you for having a good conscience.
Thank you for maintaining your moral decency.
Thank you for having a good and kind heart.
Thank you for not trying to hurt me.
Thank you for not putting me down and humiliating me.
Thank you for putting others first.
Thank you for standing up for truth & justice.
Thank you for saying what you mean and meaning what you say.
Thank you for being yourselves and not what people tell you to be.
Thank you for not trying to cheat me.
Thank you for not hating women.
Thank you for not making money your God.
Thank you for being truly charitable.
And thank you for caring for all of us.
Yes, many ex-lcs have been damaged and
desensitized by the LC Superiors' extreme rules and cruel treatment. I think you have much more human emotion than you think and your fighting spirit is what helped you escape that hellhole of a prison. You will not only heal 100%, but you will do great and positive things. I am certain of it and I will pray for your continued strength and success.
God be with you and All ex-Legionaries.
Posted by: Dingledore | May 20, 2012 at 02:27 PM
"If they have no conscience -- what do they examine before Confession?"
Good point - in fact LCs have two ten minute conscience exams every day and they prepare their confessions well.
All of this, nevertheless, is an examination that relates to the rule book. There are a series of things to examen and tick off, like a list. It is all prescribed and in-house.
An LC will lie to a benefactor and consider it to be doing god's work - not a sin, not to be confessed, yet he may confess - and feel guilty - about not completing his rosary yesterday.
My point I suppose is that their consicence is commandeered.
I heard Fr. Augustin de La Vega (is he still in?) say: let your well formed conscience be your guide.
Well I think that that is wrong, or it means: let your conscience be manipulated.
What he should say, I believe, is let your well informed conscience be your guide.
The LC would HATE that!!!
Perhaps it is more accurate to say they have a deformed conscience, rather than no conscience.
Posted by: Aaron | May 20, 2012 at 02:34 PM
@ Giselle
Just sent on your mailbox. Spanish version only.
Posted by: Xavier | May 20, 2012 at 02:34 PM
If you add the exam of preparation, which is also a kind of conscience exam, and the exam of meditation, you get some 40 mn of conscience mastu.. exam every day. And every sunday: the 1/2 hour practical exam...
I share Aaron's point of view: At the end, these exams were designed as means to pervert our natural consciences. This is indeed what we call in psychology "the self-suggestion", which is one of the typical tools of any coercive cult. It is very useful to generate frustrations, through a speech full of ideology and guilt.
But the worst is the fact that we you have to go through this methodology everyday, during months, years, decades, it makes you feeling right. In other word, it's also a very good mean to cultivate pride.
Posted by: Xavier | May 20, 2012 at 02:48 PM
Question: Why are there 800 priests and tens of thousands of RC who decided it's ok to compromise their ethics? Is it that the brainwashing is so strong or do these people really think they are closer to Christ's Kingdom if they are obedient to nasty priests?
Posted by: Dingledore | May 20, 2012 at 03:16 PM
Granted, I'm a canonist and not a moral theologian, but the two often work closely together. For me, the bigger concern, from the standpoint of moral theology, was the reaction of LC superiors and rank-and-file when news first broke of Maciel's daughter. They still adamantly refused to apologize or offer restitution to Maciel's earlier victims. Despite years of demonizing these victims and even suing them into silence.
Apologizing for one's wrongdoing, whether it was intentional or not, is the first principle of moral theology a child learns in Grade 1 catechism.
I was extremely troubled by the fact that so-called "orthodox" Catholic priests with licentiates and doctorates in moral theology were arguing against this fundamental principle of moral theology.
Posted by: Pete Vere | May 20, 2012 at 04:15 PM
Aaron: Fr Agustín de la Vega still in and in Spain. He is one of those who say that there is nothing substantial to change. You know, keep listening to your good conscience....
Posted by: Scipio's Buddy | May 20, 2012 at 04:40 PM
Pete Vere you made me laugh (though not your intention I'm sure) when you said you were a canonist and not a moral theologian...
Moral theologian like whom? Fr. Thomas Williams?!?! YOu know you COULD be an LC moral theologian if you'd only increase your sex life. And then maybe put a picture of Fr. Maciel on your desk...
I think the Church has done great, great harm... we all said Corcuera and Garza and Sada and the other big wigs (Williams) knew about MM years before they got caught. So in those years they lied to us all- they lied to the people to protect the Legion and its reputation.
Now Cardinal De Whimpis knew for years about Williams and did nothing. To protect... whom? The Legion? The Church? himself?
What else do these guys know and are not telling us?
Fuck them all. Alvaro, Garza, Bannon, Sada, Williams, Mateos, Izquierdo, Esquivel, Meade, Reilly- are there any good ones? Doubt it- if they were, they wouldn't stick around. Their silence implies complicity and cooperation and though Maciel is dead his evil lives on in them.
Posted by: -9 years of lies | May 20, 2012 at 04:43 PM
Pete, another RC member told me she had no intention of apologizing to anybody. She hadn't done anything wrong . . .
Remember, the membership and the LC painted themselves as VICTIMS in this whole process.
Posted by: It's the Duplicity, Stupid | May 20, 2012 at 05:19 PM
If she has recruited people into this scam, then she is guilty and NOT a victim!!
Posted by: Dingledore | May 20, 2012 at 05:29 PM
"I was extremely troubled by the fact that so-called "orthodox" Catholic priests with licentiates and doctorates in moral theology were arguing against this fundamental principle of moral theology."
Pete, totally agree. The lack of ackowledgement and apology from the LC to the victims for trashing their good name was mind boggling. The issue when the news broke about Maciel's daughter was that we were not supposed to judge Maciel so we could not say that he also abused those seminarians so therefore we could not apologize. You can't apologize for something you cannot admit.
For me it was common sense....his double life proved HE was the liar and not the abuse victims as we were told for years. It was heart wrenching to put the puzzle pieces together and than find out at least a year out from the scandal that Fr A and Fr G were told by the Pope in 2006 that Maciel was guilty and they said they did not believe it!
I had to apologize to several RC friends that understood the Pope's 2006 communique and stopped reading Maciels writing. I judged them for losing their "integration" in RC and kept trying to get them back in love with RC again (which was part of a TLs job) and tried to get them not to talk about what the thought so they would not scandalize others. The way you did that was to politely tell people they were not being charitable when they questioned Maciel. It was so freeing to tell them they were right and I was wrong and to say I am sorry.
Posted by: Anon out of RC | May 20, 2012 at 09:10 PM
Anon: not to worry. When I think of the Legion, I recall my high school days. There were mean cheerleaders and a top dog who expected everyone to cater to her. If someone spoke ill of her, one of her informants would squeal and get her kicked out of the group. Sound familiar? The Legion to me is one big high school cheerleading squad! Hauler: you mentioned that you left because you grew up. That is exactly why I left...I got tired of playing
their high school games. Time to grow up and stop playing Chutes and Ladders.
Posted by: Dingledore | May 20, 2012 at 09:30 PM
"Not to worry"?
Gosh, mortal sin, obvious and evident, is ""not to worry?"
¡Great!
(-and yes, I do get sarcasm, I'm NOT American...)
Posted by: LAN | May 21, 2012 at 12:14 AM
LAN: Most American Catholics I know are decent human beings. But this corrupt Mexican order is messing up what could have been really good American priests. They are teaching our young seminarians to swindle, to disregard all goodness, they've bastardized all human decency, and they've encouraged our men and women to manipulate their friends! And for what? To expand the Kingdom of Maciel. These are no longer holy men if they are deceiving people and having deviant sex with boys and women. Dios mio!! They say they are forming leaders. No, they are forming liars and cheats. Lord have mercy on them.
Posted by: Dingledore | May 21, 2012 at 01:14 AM
Regarding lc/rc Conscience exam. If I remember correctly, all the points in the questionnaires in the prayer book and practical exams were about fidelity to lc, norms, superiors, etc. There were little or no question regarding moral norms or the 10 commandments.
If I'm wrong on this, let me know.
Posted by: Fr John | May 21, 2012 at 08:41 AM
Ummmm, I agree with LAN on this one. You don't excuse away your role. Get thee to a confessional!
Posted by: Jeannette | May 21, 2012 at 08:58 AM