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Meeting those one time high standards for approval of a charism have now met a 'new normal' in the last 5+ years, sad to say. To the LCs we can add Miles Jesu, the practical functioning of celibate life in some ecclesial movements, etc.. In the process the meaning of religious life and its spinoffs for the Church at large, have been sorely cheapened.

By coddling those 'sick children' which in Benedict's mind is a compassionate effort to give some future to members whose groups are in effect spiritually depressed, we no longer have before us the confidence and light that a healthy charism is supposed to give the Church- so that it can effectively be renewed by its places of service.

These coddled works are failures and because of that they only get in the way of other possible works who could and must lead. What is noted of an institute's charism is that it is integral (complete- and lacking nothing) and transmittable (teachable and attractive from its approved sources- and not just to the indoctrinated). LC is most incomplete and filled with undefined darkness. If life outside of it is so foreboding that it becomes an injustice to dissolve it, what is that saying about life for the Catholic and priest at large in today's Church? That the Holy Spirit cannot raise up a work truly worthy of Himself?

Perhaps Chaput's (and other New Evangelization ordinaries) never ending efforts to keep praising ecclesial movements in spite of a lot of dysfunction at the local level is actually slowing down the efforts at a diocesan and parish level to renew themselves. The pain they cause and lack of harmony is leading many to cross their arms before the work of Evangelization or remain unaffected by it. The Church would do better by focusing on the goods of Evangelization themselves, not the institutes who imperfectly and at times erroneously house them. Just my 2 cents...

Just a clarification...the Legion is operating with its current, approved contitutions -- and under the care of a Papal Delegate. There certainly is a charism and a mission, although you may not like it or agree with it.

alsan, what is the charism?

I find Weigel's [and other's] "everyone is doing it" insulting to our children, as well as our intelligence [including his]. I also find his categorizations and too often name calling seriously compromise what he has to say that is valid. Still, his statement, and even more giselle's statement, forces the hard questions. There is a depth to this ongoing scandal that we haven't even begun to explore. I believe that it will not be the hierarchy that ultimately ends LC/RC. Rather, LC/RC will come to its natural death [without resurrection] as the Church, people of good will and deep faith, refuse to allow LC/RC among us, naming the disease they spread and deciding we will have no more of it. Even with the 'care of a Papal Delegate' that day is coming for LC/RC as sure as the Lord came at Christmas.

@finding truth: the problem is that we cannot always tell who they are. They remain among us using different names and seemingly-innocuous apostolates that don't reveal the connexion.

Les, we can go back to Weigel's point in questioning Alsan: Yes, the LC is approved to function with a Delegate supervising, hard to say in what manner this constitutes a charism when its very definition is one of the objectives-- but if that were conceded the question would be: if it is a charism, is it possible to be one without it being a work of God at the same time? Surely a work of God would not be hauled into a state of reform and restructuring by the Holy See at its very inception? Do you really think anyone outside the reach of LC indoctrination thinks such a proposition is credible?
I mean who is really fooled by the circular reasoning- i.e. the Legion is approved because it is a work of God/charism, and it is a work of God/charism because it is approved...

Reform is the very antithesis of an approved charism, it occurs only because of its absence.

@giselle: i agree that one may not be able to determine who they are at first instance. Yet, most usually one who knows the smell of rats can pretty readily sense when a rat is in the area. That is the point of naming the disease. Among the many graces of wisdom [and growing older] is that one comes more readily to recognize what is coming 'round the corner and/or the snake when it raises its head. The grace of wisdom also includes having the courage and endurance to not be enticed by what led one astray previously. I suppose there are always those who will not know or will not have the experience of smelling rats, but we can help them, just as you do with this site. There may come a day when LC/RC is suppressed by the heirarchy, but i think that day will come after the Church has already decided not to follow LC/RC anyway.

Hi Aslan. Sir Jimmy Saville had a charisma, a mission. He was an OBE, a Knight of the Order of Malta and Knight Commander of the Pontifical Equestrian Order of Saint Gregory the Great.

His awards were for his prolific philantrophy - he was a canny fund-raiser and charity worker.

The BBC has a code of ethics. He was employed, primarily, by the BBC.

Inspite of this, he was an abuser and allowed to abuse.

A work of God is not a work of God because MAN gets out the rubber stamp of approval.

You should not fall into the Maciel taught (much to his convenience) fallacy that you MUST believe in, subscribe to, take for infallible that which is approved, (and in the Legion's case I have my doubts about legitimate approval), by church authority.

My point is even if hypothetically it has a solid charisma and approved constitutions this does not mean that it therefore needs to exist. It does not mean that it cant be a continuation of Maciel's evil. It does not mean that it is a harmful organisation, a cult.

The sexual abuse has NOT been addressed. Members are still in the dark. The leaders refuse to teach the LC about the specifics because they are scared. The LC rank and file cannot eradicate the modus operandi of abuse specific to the legion of christ if they don't know what it is.

Earlier this year, two dossiers were handed to the Congregation for the doctrine of faith with lists of LC priests and brothers accused of sexual abuse including abuses committed within the last ten years, it is clear that these abuses are learnt behaviour in the legion, taught - copied - from generation to generation.

In connection with Giselle's point above (12/05 post at 7:10 pm), I heard recently from an acquaintance living in another city with an RC presence that Brenda Sharman (Director of Pure Fashion) is promoting a new RC apostolate for girls which is basically a re-named, reengineered version of Pure Fashion. The person who shared this with me speculated that PF has become too closely associated with RC, and thus scared off a lot of the parents of potential recruits.

Does anyone know the name of this new RC aposotolate, or have any information about it?


@Finding Truth: I take Weigel's point about abuse in other settings and institutions differently. As I read it, his point is one of comparison only; Weigel is neither excusing, nor making light of, abuse by clergy or the terrible way it was handled by bishops.

Aaron: in addition to sexual abuse, there is mental cruelty. Yes, the leadership can be very cruel and deceptive. Yes, they will lie to your face and that is learned behavior. That is part of the "initiation" process. One has to agree to be accomplices to their deception or be shunned from the group. If you are honest and question their actions, they will gang bang you with nastiness. Is this a holy order?? Don't let their boyish charm fool you. They are wolves in sheep's clothing. Incidentally, Weigl, recently
spoke at a medical conference alongside with Bartunek & Bannon. I get the sense that they all like to rub elbows with each other. They pump each other's pride. Yes, these men are all very prideful. Weigl is trying to prove that priests aren't the only naughty people in this world. Not a strong argument. What happened to being holy? Isn't that their vocation? Didn't they take vows that the non-clergy did not take? And wasn't it the priests and nuns who used to punish children for being bad? It's all hogwash and very hypocritical. Is the delegate cleaning up the mess? I'd start by throwing out the garbage at the top. Is Rome asleep too or is that by design? $$$$$$$

A recent email:
"This is a homily given by a New Orleans pastor the Sunday after election day. It is reported that his congregation listened in stony silence and were moved to give him a standing ovation.

I want to begin today by thanking those of you who went out on Tuesday and voted for the sacredness of human life. Just as the widow’s deed in our 1st reading will never be forgotten as long as the Scriptures are read, be assured that no righteous deed that we ever undertake will be forgotten by Almighty God.

This past Wednesday, the day after the election, I received a message on my phone at the parish office, from a gentleman who didn’t identify himself by name but who said he was a parishioner. And in this message, this gentleman ranted for several minutes about Tuesday’s election results. And here were the first words out of his mouth, “You lost Father; you lost!” Well, the first thing I want to say about Tuesday night’s election results is that I didn’t lose. On Tuesday night our entire country lost!
Now, having said that, I know that there are several of you who have just decided to tune me out, or you’re now burning up with anger at me because of what I just said and you can’t wait to give me a piece of your mind. But let me say two things in this regard. Number one, I am a priest of Jesus Christ, not because of any merit of my own, not because I’m any better than anyone else. God probably chose me because I am nothing and He wants to make something out of me. But I have been anointed and consecrated by God to preach His truth. And so, you can tune me out, but be warned, you do so at your eternal peril.

Second, if you’re angry because you read into my words that this homily is going to be about one elected official that you probably voted for, you’re wrong. What I have to say today goes far beyond just one elected official. What I have to say is about the overall trend that was put on display in Tuesday’s election results.
Did you know, for instance, that on Tuesday several states voted by popular majority to legalize the recreational use of marijuana? Did you know that a plan to legalize physician assisted suicide was barely rejected in Massachusetts? Did you now that for the first time in our country’s history several states, by popular vote, chose to legalize gay marriage? Did you know that two of these states are run by “Catholic” governors who actively encouraged their constituents to vote in favor of same sex unions? Did you know that in Florida, a ban on tax payers funding of abortion was rejected by the people? Add to all of this the fact that some who were elected in Tuesday’s elections are pathological liars, people who have been exposed in their lies numerous times. Apparently, a majority of Americans now condone lying, or perhaps worse, for them the lie has become the truth, evil has become good. Now can you begin to see the trend?
In the days after the elections all the talking heads in the media have been trying to explain how this all happened. But not one person in the mainstream media has gotten it right. You see, these election results are not about one party’s marketing advantage over another. Ultimately, they’re not about the appeal of one person over another, nor are they about one party being more up-to-date while the other is behind times. What we saw on Tuesday night IS about the moral decline of our nation.
Tuesday’s voting results are a mere confirmation of a choice that a majority in this country made, some as far back as 50 years ago, to reject God and to embrace evil in one form or another! And who’s to blame for this choice? Well, ultimately, each individual is responsible for his or her choices. Those who chose to vote with evil are to blame for their own choices, and they’ll have to answer to God for the way they voted. But the reality is I don’t think any of us can take ourselves completely off the hook on this one. Why? Because one of the worst contributing factors to the moral decline of our country has been the lukewarmness that has plagued the Catholic Church for years all the way from the Bishops down to the people in the pews. Pope St. Pius X once said that “All evil in the world is due to lukewarm Catholics.” Think about that for a second, “All evil in the world is due to lukewarm Catholics.”
Well, I have to be honest with you. I’ve seen this lukewarmness in every church parish at which I’ve served. But you know where else I see this lukewarmness? I see it when I look in the mirror; I see it in myself. And if we’re honest with ourselves I think all of us would see one or more area of lukewarmness in our own spiritual lives.
My brothers and sisters, each one of us has a moral obligation to do all that we can to try to reverse the moral decline of our nation. And the first place that we have to begin is within ourselves. We have to begin by responding to that vocation which is common to all of us, what the Church calls the universal call to holiness, the call from Jesus to each one of us to become a saint!
In his letter to the Philippians, St. Paul says, “work out your salvation with fear and trembling.” How many of us, each day, tremble as we strive for holiness?! How many of us live with a lively fear of hell, a place that is real and a place where souls go for all eternity?! Or have we instead accepted mediocrity in our spiritual lives? “Oh, I’m too busy to pray Lord; I just don’t have the time… I’m too tired to pray; I’ll get to it tomorrow... Oh, I don’t like that teaching of the Church, I am not going to do that, who do they think they are coming up with this stuff... Well, I think I’ve done enough for God; what more do I have to do for Him…”
In one of His parables Jesus poses an important question that we would all do well to ask ourselves. “Which of you wishing to construct a tower does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if there is enough for its completion?” Well, what cost is Jesus talking about? He’s not giving construction advice to builders and contractors. The context of that Gospel is the cost of discipleship, what it costs to be a saint, ultimately what it costs us get to Heaven. But all too often we act as if that cost is cheap! “Well, I go to Mass on most Sundays. I’m a good person; I haven’t murdered anybody. Of course I’m going to Heaven!”
Jesus dealt with this kind of cheap discipleship in the Gospels when He said, “Not everyone who says to me ‘Lord, Lord’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.” On the day of judgment many will say to Jesus, “Well, didn’t we go to Mass fairly often on Sundays and didn’t we put some money in the collection basket? Didn’t we accept at least some of the Church’s teachings? Besides, as I said before, I’m a good person; I didn’t murder anybody.” Then Jesus will declare to them, “I never knew you; go away from me you evildoers!”
My brothers and sisters, in ordinary times lukewarmness in our approach to salvation is deadly. But we are not entering into ordinary times. We are not moving forward into ordinary times. There is a great battle brewing; in fact this battle is already upon us, a battle in our country between good and evil and I can feel this battle in the very marrow in my bones. If we are not striving for holiness with every fiber of our being we will not have what it takes to pay the cost of discipleship, we will not have what it takes to get to Heaven! As Jesus says near the end of Matthew’s Gospel, “For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now and never will be. And if those days had not been shortened, no one would be saved…no one would be saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.”
It’s clear from the trends that we see in Tuesday’s election results that people of faith in this country are going to be attacked relentlessly over and over again by one wave of evil after another. And so we must be sure that we have included these attacks in our calculations. A lukewarm faith will never survive the attacks of an army of evil that is Legion. We must become saints! And do not wait for tomorrow to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for tomorrow may be too late. Today let us resolve to root out all sin from our lives! Today let us resolve to remove all evil from our hearts! Today let us double our efforts at prayers! Today let us pray that Mary, the Mother of God, our Mother, will once again crush the head of Satan, and intercede for us the grace of perseverance!
Today, let us resolve to take up our cross and be a disciple of Jesus Christ! Christ, who in the words of the Servant of God Bishop Fulton J. Sheen, “will restore within us moral indignation, Who will make us hate evil with a passionate intensity, and love goodness to a point where we can drink death like water!”
The final message that I received from that gentleman’s call on Wednesday was that I need to stop preaching the way I do. I need to stop telling people how they ought to live their lives, what teachings of the Church they need to follow. “If he wants to support gay marriage I just need to shut up and give him a choice.” Well, sir in answer to your request I give you a choice: You can either come here to this Catholic Church and listen to the Word of God and to the teachings of Jesus Christ and His Church or you can leave and go somewhere else!
Father received a standing ovation from his congregation.

Fr. Charles Sikorsky, LC, JD, JCL
The Institute for the Psychological Sciences
2001 Jefferson Davis Highway, Suite 511
Arlington, VA 22202"

This should NOT become a discussion about politics itself; but that many traditional-minded Catholics are already feeling like circling the wagons, and that the head of a pervert-worshipping cult*'s graduate school of psychology doesn't want to let a crisis go to waste. This is a well-done first step in manipulating Catholics toward the "us vs them" mentality that is so crucial in binding people's will into a cult. (Thank you, Mary Kochan) *I am a lay Catholic, with no expertise in cults so this is my personal opinion and is not binding on any other persons, who are free to draw any conclusion they want.

Please help us out !
Can you please do us the favor and quote for us the number in the LC constitutions regarding the "charism"?
Or if that doesn't work out for you, please ask the Papal Delegate what is the specific & approved charism of the lcrc. Actually he has already been asked & he couldn't state it.
But I am sure you are going to save the day by quoting the LC constitutions, Alsan, since you are such a winner.
By the way, we are not as ignorant as you presuppose. Most of us were legionaries and know very well what are in their constitutions. In fact I still have mine. I can guarantee you that there is no such number.
Possibly they have added a number recently to their constitutions. If so, please update us, Alsan since you are such a winner!
Amazing that wonderful people like you are out there to enlighten us.


The LCs having been playing up their "conservative sentiment" for many years since that is where the majority of their donors are. This is simply a mask that put on since if you have a sentimental link with a Legionary you are more likely to support them since they are a "good group" and you are less likely to ask questions about uncomfortable topics which the legion doesn't want their donors asking. Donors should be asking how much $$ donor money from the US went to support maciel's hedonistic lifestyle. Fr. Jose Felix knows very well as well as Fr. Juan Sabadell that the Rome office was raking in all the US dough while US legionaries were practically starving. I remember Br. James who is from Wichita and was administrator of the house in Rye. He told me that they had no money for food and only $20 in the bank. This while maciel was in 5 star hotels, flying concordes and engaging in less than virtuous behavior.
And if you don't believe me that the Legion didn't know, then who was paying the credit card bills - maciel? Maciel didn't do diddly. He didn't work in the gardens, wash his BMW, clean the floors, nada, nothing. Maciel didn't do administrative work and he sure didn't pay his own bills. So it was pretty easy to see - "Presidential Suite" on a cc bill. $15,000. etc.
Fr. Charles knows very well that his donors are the wealthy, conservative republicans and he wallows in their sorrow sympathizing with them only for one thing - $$$$$. And the less people ask about abusive financial practices in the Legion, the better.
When I was at the Hamden office I would go by stacks and stacks of donor prayer intentions wrapped in rubber bands that were never sent over to Cheshire for the prayers of the brothers. These stacks were loaded into US Mail bins and stacked in an unused cubicle. Later on they were all shredded.
Anyway, this is the first law of lc fundraising - blend in with their donor interests and make yourself their best buddy.
Thought you might like to know that.

Regarding "Approved".

It is just a word. Eight letters.

I would like to know if the financial and spiritual manipulation of innocent people for the benefit of the Legionaries of Christ is really "approved" by Jesus?

Maciel's methods of spiritual and financial manipulation are the bedrock of the Legion. It is not possible for the Legion to function without it.

It takes courage and willpower to admit that the development of the Legionaries of Christ was an incredibly fruitful scheme created by a power-hungry, narcissistic, sexual-deviant and that the same type of people stood by his side and helped it grow into the corrupt organization it is today. Jesus approves no such things, I'm quite certain.

Jeanette: A homily like that was very easy to give in Louisiana, much tougher in Boston or New York or L.A.

Jeanette, I will laud you on the one point- the absence of the theme of the New Evangelization which supposedly is part of what makes them 'special'. He was in effect just preaching to the choir and using the man who called him, as a kind of straw man Catholic in the pew, whom he wished to beat up on. The truth is Churchgoers are not the anti-value voter in elections, but the un-Churched are, and especially the Catholic unChurched. The non-practicing of any religion have grown to one in 5 Americans. The message ought to not be about beating up on the faithful, but calling on that New Evangelization to come forth from their parishes and homes. Yes- the future is all about a new conquest of the Church not the bemoaning of a lost America.

Frank, Yes, there is a new thing that seems designed to replace Pure Fashion. I can't remember the name but will find out for you--maybe something like iFaith? Anyway, it just stinks--it's like the flu virus. LC/RC just keep mutating themselves into something different that will not respond to the current vaccine (i.e., stay away from Pure Fashion) and they seem to keep getting tougher and more resistant--at least here in Atlanta. It's scary down here, folks. I've heard from at least a handful of former donors that after requesting to be removed from call lists several years ago they have recently been contacted anew for requests for money. One was just yesterday--and of course they set a new, fresh LC on the phone to innocently call and ask for money. A clueless young LC who knows none of the history--neither the LC history nor the donor history--totally set up to naively, sweetly ask for money. And in this case yesterday, when he was turned down (with a lengthy explanation) he piously asked, "Well then, will you please pray for us? And may I pray for you?" Honestly, it's just repulsive.

Thanks, Savannah. Looking forward to hearing more about this once you get your hands on the info.

Also, a shout out of thanks to Aaron for keeping us updated as to the latest news of Maciel's son who was jailed (mentioned on a previous thread). These updates are helpful to those of us who do not speak Spanish.

Aaron, I haven't been following this..has Maciel's son been let go?
Anyway have any updates on the Mrs Mee's court case?

Hi alsan. Still waiting for an answer: what is the charism?

Does anyone know if the LC / RC actually dig into donors' personal & financial information? Do they spend part of their day doing research on people?

Les, Aslan's batteries went dead!

You'd think those individuals at legion hq and at the Vatican involved with the “reform” and “purification” of the legion would have given high priority to searching out answers to Weigel's “very hard question.” But both have apparently agreed not to, as the expression has it, go there.

Why not? Is part of the explanation because asking such a question would require both the legion and the Vatican to plead the fifth, so to speak, since their answers would produce self-incriminating evidence of their cover-up, cynical betrayal of trust, and other misdeeds? As Savannah puts it . . .”it's just repulsive.”

If you ask such question, the LC brothers and priests will answer 'absolutely yes'.
Don't forget this: Maciel, the great predator, used to repeat like a mantra "This is a work of God", "God's will"... That's why the LCs have an imprinting in their minds; they are able to accept there were some "mistakes" of a poor sinner (like Velasio de Paolis said). But their minds are blocked to face the whole truth. It works in some cases as self defense because their own lives are involved. If this is not a 'work of God', what am I doing here? Where are all these years spent working for a Predator? Heavy questions.
The real outstanding question is why the Vatican?... without investigation... without facing the truth...

Reid: Those who had it within themselves to ask that question have since left. If any in the present situation begins to truly ask that question, breaking through the mind-numbing mantras of the establishment, they too will also eventually leave. In fact I would guess everyone inside knows whoever lets his mind be 'troubled' by the matter has been taken by the dark side of the force and sooner or later will be driven into the darkness... If he troubles others with it, he is the devil himself trying to rob him of his vocation.

Weigel is a blessing. He is the only major Church figure willing to let those self-satisfied LCs
know that their 'approval' is not worth the paper it is written on.

ALSAN knows that the charism is seducing vulnerable women into giving them money. They play with one's pride as they pump up their own arrogance. I was so saddened to learn what they really do with people's prayer intentions. How shameful! They remind me of those sham funeral homes that don't honor the deceased by mixing up cremated remains. For the children's sake, I really do pray for their purification and it needs to be done from the top down as that's where the rot began - with the founder and his cronies.

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