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Does anyone have any more details about the following cases (except for Xavier Legorreta which is pretty well known)? Thanks.

Fr. Angel Espinoza is still on TV in Mexico on the Catholic channel.

A esto sume los casos ya mencionados el padre Ángel Espinosa de los
Monteros Gómez Haro, el padre Jesús Sánchez, el padre Bernardo
Skertchly, de Xavier Legorreta, del padre Ignacio Camarena y en Chile
el del padre John O`Reilly

Angel Espinoza??? I wonder what that is all about.
An exlc I know saw him recently and Angel asked HIM some pretty personal questions....

No new information here, unless you count the gossip about the sex lives of various LCs.
I've gotten in trouble for saying this before, but what I don't like about P. Pedro is that he makes no distinction between predators/perverts, and simple human weakness. For the good of society, predators need exposing, but not a lonely guy getting laid. NOT THE SAME THING!(and yet I feel an argument coming...)
Of course the last general chapter is ridiculous in the light of how MM was living, but he doesn't offer any proof that a large percentage of the chapter fathers believed the accusations. Of course we can say they should have known, but we all should have known.
And as for the snarky tone, does he really expect Fr Heerman to read beyond the first couple of paragraphs?

No argument from me, Another ex-LC. What grieves me to tears is how Fr. Thomas Williams was thrown under the bus when he fell from poster-boy status. There is a huge difference between predation against a child and human weakness in adults. See this on those who abuse children and scandalize the young:

It's true. they aren't the same. Abuse of children is a crime. A priest getting laid is a violation of a promise, and thereby, trust. Jesus didn't condemn the adultress. But he had something quite different to say about those who harm children. Jesus can and does forgive and redeem, but we still live with the consequences of sin. for the priest who got laid, perhaps a child which means his responsibilities lie outside the priesthood now. For the abuser, jail. Or at least that is what a just and faithful Church and culture would hope.

Unfortunately, there is a little more to this than simple human weakness.
Abuse of those over whom one has special care or some sort of ascendancy is an abuse of power, similar in kind (but maybe not degree) to abuse of a child.
What I mean here is that if a priest, rabbi, minister, teacher, doctor, mental health provider has relations with someone under their care, it is often more than just getting laid. There is also a strong element of using and abusing the power which is held over the other person.

Well, a priest is not just a guy. And women don't see a priest as just a guy. He is considered in a position of responsibility and extreme trust, as in any clergyman, but moreso due to his sacramental status. So, yes, a priest might fall for a woman, but he has to realize two things: one, the woman was attracted as much by his priestliness and untouchability, and two, both his status and his crime have an outsized effect on her. Consider a president, for instance. The power alone attracts as an aphrodisiac to some people.

"It is the power differential that makes abuse possible. A predator or manipulator or exploiter or [insert behavior here] had more power and control than you did – and they chose to misuse it. That power might have been due to their size or strength, making it impossible to protect yourself or to physically escape, but there is another kind of power that is most often a key factor: the power of the relationship.

The power differential in the relationship also made it impossible to protect yourself. This may have been due to their age or their position within your family or neighborhood or church or school or community. It may have been because they were highly revered, feared, respected, or loathed. Their power may have come from their rage or threats or the leverage they used to control you. Some of that leverage may have been to protect others, to shield the truth from people because you would have been held responsible, or the threat of something terrible happening – like a divorce or an arrest or being homeless or going to Hell or not being believed.

Power is an elusive thing for a vulnerable person – particularly a child. Predators zero in on the powerlessness of their victims and twist the truth. They turned the tables on who was responsible for what and put that responsibility squarely on your shoulders. If they manipulated you to feel sexual pleasure, then they used that normal response to nail your emotional and sexual coffin closed. They created such guilt and chaos in you, that even now – looking back over the years – you struggle to distinguish between abuse and normal sexual curiosity.

It takes time, perspective, and sometimes the validation from outside your own head – to put all of this in order, but you need to hear this clearly: abuse takes place because of the POWER DIFFERENTIAL between you and your abusers. Sexual curiosity, acting out, or experimentation as you developed is not an indication of your consent to abuse. The truth is that sexual pleasure is usually experienced when a person – young or old – is sexually stimulated. The fact that you may have experienced sexual pleasure is NORMAL. What is NOT normal is the context in which you had those sensations – the CONTEXT of abuse."


The main point Fr. Pablo is making in his analysis of the General Chapter is that people knowing there was something wrong with Maciel (regardless of the abuse accusations) because they knew about his everyday life INSIDE the Legion are promoting him as a model and as the cornerstone of the whole Legion. Heereman was toou young to be in the chapter, but he was already a TD when Maciel died so he basically subscribed the cover up, at least in the last part.

A pity such lengthy 'formation' and grooming does not enable these supposedly educated people to write succintly and to the point. So much is lost in their interminable ramblings... Anyway, every little drop counts against the paederast's disgusting outfit.

When I read Fr. Pablo, I get the impression he is not so much on a witchhunt of wayward LCs per se, but going after the elite of the LC in how they use their status and absolute loyalty to the nomenclatura to be excused from scrutiny or justice, as are the rank and file.

I do not know enough of the particular cases to know how substantial they are, but from the inside of the LC, I would not doubt that a new bubble is forming among the newly committed to shield them from the signs that their charism of an oh so perfect formation program seems to have had a few hickups... Fr. Pablo is kind of an angelic gadfly trying to pop the bubbles with the real world of LC vice.

@ PWC: I grant that extraordinary differences of age or authority suggest something more than weakness at work. But priests are still men. My gut feeling is that sex between a priest and a woman should generally be seen as nothing more than fornication unless the priest has been involved in many such affairs or the woman was unusually dependent on him. If circumstances allow, I don't see why the priest can't attempt to salvage his vocation.
@ Mary Ann: Priests are still human.
@ Anon: If Fr Pedro were an angel maybe I would agree. He is, however, a man, and susceptible to the same temptations as the rest of us. Looking back on my religious life, there were times when I was strong and probably could have resisted any temptation. But there were other times
when I was weak, but no temptations came my way. Some people can claim to have never broken a religious or marriage vow, but I suspect that if they were honest they would acknowledge that it is only part virtue, and part luck.
So, I don't mind Fr Pedro calling out a serial adulterer or abuser of boys, especially one protected by his superiors, but his innuendos about other sexual sins smacks of hypocrisy and hurts the reputation of men who might otherwise be no worse than the rest of us.

I was not thinking of the power or soul-guidance relationship of director-directee, but rather the garden-variety lust that is everyman's temptation; seduction and predation are not what I meant. Does anyone recall the 1987 movie "Dragnet" where Dan Akroyd says: "There are two things that distinguish us from the beasts -- we use cutlery and can control our sexual desires"? Wasn't that it? Sometimes a little touch of bawdy humor is the best antidote...

Off-topic: Giselle, I don't know if this is news worthy enough for a separate post, but I thought I'd give a heads up about efforts to open a new school in the Diocese of Green Bay, Wisconsin. It would be centrally located in the Fox Cities (Appleton), but more important it would be using NCE (National Consultants for Education) curriculum. One can verify this under the FAQ section of their website: They link this NCE curriculum to other schools that use it, naming them. Innocent use of Legion curriculum or attempt to plant RC/LC in an area (for Wisconsin) that is doing fairly well economically?

I'd be down with viewing sex between priest and parishioner as nothing more than fornication if Catholic women thought of their priest as nothing more than a typical sinful man.

But I've yet to run across too many Catholic women who view their priests the same way they'd view any other man on the street.

While it's nowhere near the level of child abuse, it's still a whole lot worse than your run-of-the mill fornication between two singles.

The Church can't have it both ways---putting priests way up up on a pedestal and then pretending that when one of them has sex with a parishioner it's nothing more than weakness on the part of a mere man.

I'll buy it when the Church starts telling Catholics we should think of priests as no better and no different than Joe Schmoe the sinner who lives down the street.

Maybe the church needs to stop saying priests are brides of the church or married to the Lord. We know they are men, made of flesh. The secrecy is there for a reason.

I'm at a loss because part of me thinks that if one cannot commit to the vow of chastity, then one must sadly leave the priesthood. Other times, I think it's preposterous for anyone to think it's humanly possible for a man (or a woman) to be pure for life. I think the whole premise of the priesthood is difficult to grasp. Throw in all of the talk about spirituality and love - it's no wonder things go awry, especially if wine or alcohol are involved. I'm not saying it's right, but I can see how temptations arise and how things can happen, especially if one has been untouched for years. I know that priests are held to higher standards, but there is a major difference between abuse of a child and consensual sex between adults (male or female). It is the abuse of power (abuse of the collar) that gets people upset. Preying on an innocent child must be reported as a crime, especially if the abuse is repetitive. If that same person were to commit the same crime on the outside (without the collar), they would certainly be considered a registered offender. They also need our prayers and a lot of therapy.


So -- priests are only men -- it's just fornication -- no big deal -- move along...


JtF, thanks for the heads up about a new school putting out feelers in central Wisconsin. Yes, when you check their website, they link to NCE, which is a Legion-run company still employing die-hard RC people in Atlanta. Yet, there is no connection mentioned with RC/LC anywhere on NCE's website or the school's website. Nothing has changed. If people's freedom was truly respected by this group, they would be upfront as to who the priests are who have agreed to come into the school to celebrate Mass daily. This is an enticement for prospective families. If they knew of the RC/LC affiliation, people could make an educated decision as to whether they would want their children to be taught by a group that concealed a pedophile for 60 years and who, by their own admission are not interested in educating children but in recruitment for their machine. Does the bishop of this diocese even know who they are? Does he know that other schools in the Midwest under this group have closed after families invested lots of money and time into them? Transparency will never be part of the LC charism.

@ Dingledore: let's not equate having sex with impurity! Sex is good. It's when and with whom that creates problems.

Agreed Mary Ann, but are priests supposed to refrain from all sex acts or are they just supposed to be celibate? If I'm not mistaken, they're not even supposed to spank it, no less do it to each other. If that's not the case, let me know. Maybe the rulebooks need to be changed? I only bring it up because they were so quick to point out my every flaw and weakness.

Myself being a priest, I totally get the reason for celibacy and choose to live it, but there are still even incongruencies in our Church with this subject. Some Catholic priests marry and others don't, meaning the differences of Eastern rites as opposed to Roman rites and before anyone gives me a long explanation, I know that they both sprung from different backgounds/traditions etc, and that in the eastern rite you need to be married before going into the seminary if you will be a married clergy. My point is this, there is a lot of ignorance amongst our faithful out there. I can't believe how many catholics don't know of the Byzantine rite and tradition and then flabbergasted that some priests under the pope are married... it's even been to the extreme that I know of people who said they will not go to a mass which a married priest is isn't right. Now, I totally get and agree with the previous comments, that if I am of the Roman rite, I follow by the grace of God what has been asked of me...finally, I believe in the brotherhood of all priests from all rites, but if at priestly conference, which is attended by mainly celibate priests and a few married priests, won't it be a bit difficult to get a strong message across that "brothers, cherish your celibacy"..already you have to change that word to "brothers, cherish your chastity" because a married priest isn't called to live the same as non..but called to chastity in the married state. We should also never create into dogma something that is not. I don't lose sleep over the possibility or not if the Latin rite were to change.
Having said all this, I don't think that the Church will necessarly revisit this, if the Latin rite were to ever change, especially since there are such pending challenges with gay marriage, the health mandate and growing global problem, and we need to be closer to our people now more than ever. Let's face it folks it really seems that these next 50 years or close to that, that we are living in apocalyptic times. In fact, it's a mystery to what will happen to our Church in the future. Just know this, in being particularly sympathetic to the young guys I have seen coming in and I'm not saying for this personal experience per se (that is things they have told me) but knowing their environment. The amount of porn out there alone is astounding. Once, someone showed me, that if you don't have a safeguard on your google search and you google in just something like "hot women", obviously not the most Christian term, but still not technically pornagraphic, you won't believe the images that come up! No, I won't justify anyone's sin, whether he be a single man, seminarian, priest or bishop in this area (and of course, I am not including the area of child abuse/pedophilia which is a completely differently category)...but at the same time, pray more than ever, that we be pure and chaste, loving, giving and for those of us who were in the legion, and how the legion stripped so much away from us, our personhood, friendships, normal activity, that we are able to find Jesus, heal and learn to grow again. The moment that we forget even just an ounce, that we deserve none of God's grace, but it's given freely by Him, is the moment when we won't challenge out of love and mercy, but we end up judging. All the LCs don't see this; we challenge them out of love because we love Jesus and His Church so much and the LCs are not living in step with the Church like they claim. Getting back to the original thread, God bless Fr Pablo for being a prophet out there!

Leaving the chastity-celibate aside for a comment later on, I´ll go to the “cover up” analyzing the paragraph “Realidad y Metamorphosis” from the letter. It is hard to picture the scene after the General Chapter for someone who was not immersed in the RC-LC formation of those years. I think Fr. Pablo named it very well when saying the interpretation of the event was a metamorphosis. That was not a cover up for a special moment, but the lifestyle we all lived for years…everything was constantly a metamorphosis of reality since we were formed to live in a perfect bubble. Our lifestyle was to purify reality and see the good out of everything. It was as well to purify intentions of ourselves as of others to create a perfect environment to breathe holiness and perfection. When we would tell an anecdote, we immediately and almost instinctively choose the best parts of it, we filtered those things that could ruin it, and we would make and tell a metamorphosis of reality. When we talked about our companions, the same…if they were good/bad and human, we would put them on altars as a constant. Regarding the founder…the same and more, for an accent was put on him since he had a special call from God, a special mission to fulfill and a special everything where whatever difference he will have will be justified. The founder didn’t have to justify, we would do it for him!!! That is what he worked for years creating that system and later on the system was running with no need of his great effort anymore. As in Mexico we say “crea fama y échate a dormir.” For me, it is easy to read those paragraphs after the chapter as something expected and not scandalizing me. Perfection needed to help the founder put in his words the best intentions, the best heart possible ever. Legionaries would compete to put the most holy reactions on him as they helped him dress as the saint he should be since that was his mission as a founder and their mission while being secretaries and cofounders close to him. It’s obvious they didn’t believe or could see then that he was a pedofile and psychopath. It is so sad and painful to look at it now..but we were so immerse and blind.
This is a Chapter of history for us to learn about phsycopaths and amazing personalities which most often escape from justice and right judgement at the end of their lives; to learn about the influence of powerful systems, the reality of seduction in very intelligent minds... idolatry and idealism, blindness, etc. It is a pity to dedicate our lives to the new mission of blaming others and trying to find the guilty ones. If we see the history of the church and the altars and stories of saints…is there a great difference we find? We had made throughout the years a metamorphosis of reality creating with faith a huge and holy institution which is as human and truly imperfect as all others.
In my point of view…which is as imperfect as others and just my perception, more than a cover up with the intention of cheating and fooling others, I can see the consequence of a system where metamorphosis was the means for a perfect bubble as we wished to live and believe in it. Gosh, looking back at those consecrated years…

On 1994, I was on the formation center (ICES)and my family visited me. I went with may family to San Giovanni Lateranno and we saw Maciel alone, on his car, without the clergyman, and with two kids on his car. He was waiting somebody to come out from the church. We said hello to him and he was so, but really so strange. He literally took my complete family and walked with us, across the street, to leave us at the Scala Santa; all this eventhough he was living the kids alone on the car. He said goodbye really but really fast and went back to the car. He told us that the kids were his nephews. And we saw, from the Scala Santa how he was waiting for two women. They went into the car and left to fast. Really we didn't think anything bad.... now we know who were those kids and those women: Norma and her daughter, and the boy that he had with the woman of Tijuana.... OMG!!!

Take care of your families, parish, and trusting friends. Educate your kids and unless your CHILD wants to be a priest, don't allow them to be brainwashed.

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