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* On those several similar cases- "The cardinal did not list other problematic founders"

Sounds like the good Cardinal has really thought this one out..examples and all..or is he just repeating DePaolis talking points?

** Bad founders "who bring the church a grace that is good and beautiful"

OK does this square with the facts?-- If the Holy See truly believed that 'good and beautiful', then there would have been no need for a visitation, no delegate, no need to rewrite the constitutions, no need to restructure the governance of the order, no need for tutorial sessions on respecting conscience and the proper role of authority. And most obvious of all the LCs themselves would be presiding over their own General Chapter, who are the bearers of this 'good and beautiful charism'- instead we have it tightly controlled by DePaolis and Ghirlanda.

Similarly Miles Jesu is still there, purged it seems, but floundering after having been 'refounded' by its commissar.

Archbishop Watty said the founder wounded the group, wounded its spirit and way of being. How much more plainly can the Maciel effect be spelled out?

I kind of get this message: The Holy Father will not banish the Congregation so the Cardinal prepares beforehand the ground making some reflections. Fine. Let's see how deep will the Holy Father probe into the Legion.

John L. Allen did name one such similar case in his Jan 22 article.

"Recently, American canon lawyer Edward Peters called for the Legion to be put out of business, asserting that "the Catholic church has zero tradition of institutes of perfection being founded ... by predatory charlatans." Bartunek said it was consoling to hear De Paolis and Ghirlanda say that's not quite true.

"It's pretty clear we're not the only ones," he said, "because both of them said they've dealt with other cases."

"(Though he said De Paolis and Ghirlanda did not cite specifics, one instance they may have had in mind concerns the founder of an Italian order known as the Servants of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, Fr. Gino Burresi, who was removed and barred from public ministry by Benedict XVI in May 2005 facing charges of sexual abuse of seminarians. In retrospect, it seemed a harbinger of the pope's move against Maciel a year later, and today the Servants are still a going concern.)"

Maybe John Allen knows a few more.

Surely, Fr Bartunek and I find our consolations in different places.

I will say there is urgency, and I mean grave urgency for these eminent Churchmen to define what they mean by a 'bad' founder. We are not talking about someone who was honest and upright in the act of founding, but who has some bad moments. We are speaking of carrying out the act of founding in an evil manner.

At present in the case of Maciel and his closest collaborators evil means and evil intent were used to found the group. By accepting the fruit, The Legion today, they are at least materially accepting the means that created the group. We are not referring only to material evil, remote to intentions, but formal evil, evil that was intended as part of the act of founding. (Sex Abuse, deceit about history, manipulation of conscience, invalid approvals..)

This dark provenance stings every unsettled spirit now looking at the work of Maciel. Victims like Barba, Alarcon and Amenabar can now ask was my personal degradation an acceptable means to the Legion's existence today? Their lives were wronged not only by a singular extraneous act, but by the core style of life and way of being that made the Legion come to be in their day. These men all say the same thing- the Legion of their day must be destroyed.

Ofcourse the list of persons affected is much wider, but to pretend that intentional evil can mix the Lord's intentions in carrying out his work is false- such works come to a bad end. The Legion continues today to be in moral continuity with the personal actions of Maciel and will remain so until it is effectively dissolved.

This is why DePaolis and Ghirlanda have been trying to get to an a-historical experience of patrimony- one that begins from community reflection in the here and now. It is simply choosing to remember your past as you wish without causes or consequences of choices. All this as if moral agents do not matter.. It is a house of cards that will come crashing down on them soon enough.

Maciel is probably the preeminent conman in the past century and certainly one of the greatest in the history of the Church.

Whether we like it or not, he was aided and abetted by the Vatican and important members of the hierarchy, whom he also duped.

As always, I submit that the process of reform/suppression is underway. The General Chapter will submit its results (new constitutions etc.) and then it will be up to Pope Francis to decide.

I am inclined to think he knows the LC well enough (he was a good friend of my friend the Argentinian Card. Pironio.) So I expect he will make an informed decision. Cardinal Pironio was well aware of what was going on. He just didn't have time to do much before he died.

At this stage, I don't think there is much more to do. The facts are known. Its up to the Vatican.

It always good to stand as a witness to truth of things no matter where the PTB end up.

They have any number of pragmatic considerations influencing them, and, in the end, suppression may suppose at this point in their minds more trouble than just letting the group wither away as is, in its pseudo-reformed state. I think its 98% given the Pope will not dissolve the group, but the real interest will be under what conditions will he have it go on. Will he disintone any of DePaolis's work?

If the Pope seems unsettled about the LC, even while giving them a sendoff, it will enable more reformers to speak out from within.

The long delay in the approval of the general director is interesting but DePaolis may have planned it that way, so that he could finish the General Chapter review of the constitutions while still in control, then make the transition, after the Chapter has 'approved' everything, and have it mark the end of his commission.

Hate to say this, folks, but the Cardinal is probably trying to say something, like a parent preparing a teen for painful news: that he really was adopted. Probably many heroic tales over the centuries of Church history are either totally made up, or hide not so nice people. It would be good if he gave specific examples, but better if secret archives were fully opened (there are probably a lot more “La voluntad de no saber” surprises).
Also another thing to consider, there is some really crazy stuff going on the far right of the Church right now (see recent posts by Zmirak). The last thing the Church needs is a schismatic crazy group of that ilk.
But this still does not excuse what is happening now. As mentioned, the intent was evil from start. When Christ calls for the conversion of sinners, that does not mean that sinful behavior is now “virtuous”. Sin has no rights, but apparently not to PTB, addicted to money and power.
My hope is that LCRC is safely and successfully suppressed, for the good of trapped members. If not, that it stays under new competent Papal supervision indefinitely (at least until the current generation passes on).
I will refrain from comments on OD at this point… :)

"As always, I submit that the process of reform/suppression is underway. The General Chapter will submit its results (new constitutions etc.) and then it will be up to Pope Francis to decide."

Which in this case does not imply justice for the victims. It may mean cover-up for the Vatican, bot not justice. By no means, justice.

I just have one request. When the Church has managed to get through all those mental gymnastics allowing it to contradict everything the institution has ever taught before regarding founders and charisms, I just want to see them announce it with the honest headline: "Catholic Church Concludes that out of a Child Molesting, Drooling Drug-addicted, Womanizing Con Artist Springs a Beautiful Gift of the Holy Spirit, All While He Continues to Sodomize Children"

A sub-headline of "Taught order of priests to protect him well while at it" would be a nice touch,too.

Gems, the reply article could also say "Gems and other frequent Life-after-RC contributors simply cannot accept that God can work outside the limits they have set for Him".

Subtitle: "Is this really an Evangelical attitude or just hybris?"

Exactly " God can work outside...", not "when I command to God to works outside".
Sure there are examples in the Bible (David), but it was on God's terms. I can pray but not put tempt God. Also, when the Cardinal hints that their is more dirt hidden, without giving a single example, he smears the entire history of the Church.I am a cynic, but I don't believe that it is 100% or even 50% bad. The Cardinal half opened a new can of worms. OK, fine, lets start with the here and now, since we are at it, lets hear about how Bishop Del Portillo was a "saint", because he dared "heroically" say hi to a door man, and even said the rosary, something "no one does", or is it because he pushed methodologies that Maciel copied? etc, etc.. ...

Looking back to when the crisis first broke in the media, it never ceases to amaze me how prophetic Fr. Changobeer proved with regards to the demise of his once beloved LC/RC and what would impede or delay true reform within the movement.

MM's writings are key and point. Interesting re-reading his blog entry on this topic: "Leave the Bathwater. Take the Cannoli."

A question. Other groups with questionable founders have been mentioned. Do we know when these groups were started? Were they before or after Maciel? Could he have been a model for these other people to form groups to have easy access to victims?

"Gems, the reply article could also say "Gems and other frequent Life-after-RC contributors simply cannot accept that God can work outside the limits they have set for Him".

Subtitle: "Is this really an Evangelical attitude or just hybris?"

Try telling that to the victims who were being sodomized, seduced, and bamboozled by Maciel while he was supposedly transmitting the charism of the Holy Spirit to them.

Who cares about them, though. As long as we can fit God into the nice little Legion story box, that's what matters.

The following was a comment from Mark Shea's blog. They were not discussing the LC/RC but it did remind me of them.

From what I'm reading, this is a common ploy used by degree and diploma mills. They seek out "recognition" or "accreditation" from an accrediting association that itself has no standing or recognition anywhere.

Quote from the research paper, "Bogus Institutions and Accrediting Bodies":

"Clever operators of diploma mills have invented their own accrediting bodies to add an air of legitimacy to their credentials and to further confuse prospective students who know they need to look for an accredited program but don't know that there are recognized and unrecognized accrediting bodies, much less how to tell the difference. Further muddying the waters, some diploma mills may claim to evaluate a student's work history, professional education, and prior learning and require a student to submit a thesis or dissertation as the basis for
their award of the diploma or degree."

That does sound an awful lot like what happened with Sugenis. I've read that he submitted a dissertation to CIU like this research paper says, too. I actually feel badly for people who get caught up in these kinds of scams. Scam artists can be quite good at trying to make themselves look legitimate!"

News from the General Chapter: Weather is nice, the superiors have boring meetings, the younger LC's are were moved out of their rooms and are being put to cook, do the laundry and clean for the chapter Fathers. Isn't this the "beauty" of the LC "charism", to treat the superiors as, well...superiors. "I came to serve, not to be served"

The usual order (..the way mostly understood, imho):
I am a sinner; I repent my sins and make amends for the harm I may have caused; I intend to do God's will: love God and neighbor; I ask for God's Grace to help me in this; He makes "crooked lines straight" on His Terms, all for which I am eternally grateful and humbly accept…

New “Holy” inc et al order:
I am a sinner; If I sin..cheat, lie, deceive, abuse, steal, etc... and say it is in the name of God, its ok; furthermore, by doing so, I give God a wonderful opportunity for God to take my sins and make "crooked lines straight", on my terms, according to what I say should be “God’s will”; as a further sign of "holiness"[TM], I am suffering, because you are upset with me, because I took your money, children etc.. in what I say is in the name of God; If you were really Christian, you would forgive me and let me continue; Your anger against me, and my resulting "holy"[TM] suffering are signs of contradiction, so "holy"[TM] people like me deserve to be beatified and canonized (..anyways, we will make sure of that, we have the funds and the connections…)..

You can run on for a long time
Run on for a long time
Run on for a long time
Sooner or later God'll cut you down
Sooner or later God'll cut you down

Go tell that long tongue liar
Go and tell that midnight rider
Tell the rambler, the gambler, the back biter
Tell 'em that God's gonna cut 'em down
Tell 'em that God's gonna cut 'em down

Johnny Cash

does anyone know anything about Fr. Fernando Torres, LC?

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