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Its time to start thinking about working with the catholic church and not be stuck on only the Catholic Church

Wow! I never expected the Cardinal to say something like that at the end of the General Chapter.
A more direct translation of the words "Obstinate" (obstinados) and "hard-headedness" (cabezoneria) give a better idea of how harsh his judgement is.
Then he used the word "perplexity" regarding the election of Fr Eduardo Robles Gil. I would imagine some thought he was too much of an old-school legionary and others wanted someone younger and with more open ideas.

"It will cost one to say that the Legion is a useful work for the Church". We might want a more precise translation eventually on this; how does he view the word "useful"? Stalin was very useful in getting rid of Hitler, after all but that doesn't mean his works were good.

@Jeanette: I left it somewhat literal so that better linguists can opine, but the sense is clear to me just the phrasing from the spanish seems awkward. What he is saying is that demonizing Maciel too much will disable one's ability to see the good the Legion is for the Church.

Ofcourse does that not beg the question? He starts from the result he wishes, and then works backwards to argue that Maciel was a bad man who happened- who knows how- to found a work of God. Why not let the facts speak for themselves? Do not Maciel's actions lead us clearly to assess in substantial ways what value the Legion truly is for the Church?

-Another error is in claiming that the Legion's victimhood of itself affords them innocence. Just because the Legionaries are victims does not mean they have not made others victims as well, rather it disposes them to it.

-He says the LCs are holy men- OK what does he mean by that? Does not holiness imply spiritual maturity,the gift of discernment and counsel as the Holy Spirit shows the way, and include some basic virtues of transparency and honesty? So holy men, he says... so in what way are they holy such that stubbornness, recognized abuses of obedience, disrespect of conscience, and the Pharisaical concoction of over 1000+ rules can all fit into an objective definition of holiness?

I think the Legion sees itself to be a victim of Maciel in the sense that the world is persecuting it because of Maciel.

They do not see themselves as victims of Maciel directly.

They are victims of the media, of bad press, of losing benefactors, of court cases etc

They are indeed, in my opinion, victims of Maciel and they should be treated as such. All legionaries should be given access to independent counselling (ie the individual chooses the counsellor, the legion pays, the legion has no recourse to see the counsellor's notes or talk to the counsellor about the patient. Perhaps the only condition should be that the counsellor is accredited by a professional body).

"We have not attempted to give a judgment , we leave that to God ..."
AnonObs, the way I read it, contrary to LCRC statements, nowhere does he say that it is in fact a "work of God".
Aaron, that's a good point about what he may mean by victim. Berry in his last article says that LCs wrote him a letter asking to make counseling available. The letter was unanswered.

@Tom: Interesting, but it follows this line: "If he was a demon , how can his work be good?" This question is what he prefers not to be judged, or simply not answer. Hence its provenance must be left as a 'mystery' so that we just take the Legion as it is today, i.e. judged outside of its historical context. This makes sense from his perspective, given the whole renewal process was built around that idea.

However I do believe you are correct in general in saying DePaolis has avoided calling the Legion a work of God, because then he would have to answer that question of outsiders, "In what way is the Legion a work of God?." Just as when he was asked about what is the charism of the Legion and he answered "buona domanda!". (Good Question!) and gave no answer.

In reading this, I think the real issue keeping everything going is not LC but RC. That is, what to do with all the sincere but misled and mis-formed laypeople whose intentions were orthodox?

Pete. they need authentic Catholic formation. It's clear from every LC/RC defender's comments on various blogs that they still are mis-formed.

Given DePaolis's lack of awareness of so many things, did the LC succeed in convincing him that the RC was much bigger that it really was? Really how many today do they still carry on their lists as active when in fact they gave up on the group long ago? Or in fact do no more than go to an annual retreat and that is it.

"choices (cartridge?)"
-->would translate with "ammunition"


Pete, that is a very good question. I would not expect anything from LCRC, or coming from church leaders. Nada, zip. The Delegate did not even want to provide help, counseling to trapped LCs, as mentioned above. IMO, RC’s families that remain will just follow whatever the “new” LC decides they should do (in other words, no change: provide support, $$$ and children for their “schools”). Making any changes, putting new rules to prevent psychological/spiritual abuse would mean disrupting similar practices in other similar, high control Catholic groups with “consecrated-like”, “pseudo nuns/monks” lays or what ever you want to call them, such as the Neocats, OD, C&L, etc..

A little over a year ago we held a meeting in Atlanta. The objective was to go over how generic cult like groups operate, how these cons function, the history behind them, and show how similar LCRC was. The fantastic Catholic author, Genevieve Keneke, and Mary Kohan (an ex Jehova, now Catholic, well know to ICSA) gave excellent talks. Little over 20 people showed up. I think it was worth while and feedback was good (Ok, Jeannette was not happy that it was not revolutionary enough :), and one of the ex-consecrated said after that she did not see the need). More would have come. One problem it seems, is that people are afraid or a bit shy to come to a thing like that. Initially we had a sign in and an entrance fee (to pay for transportation of speakers), but even that proved to be a barrier, especially for some ex consecrated that had just left (a few of us ended footing the costs, thanks to A&W, GSK). We help it in a local parish, without sign in, mostly via word of mouth and by advertising on LARC. Its possible that having more such meeting could help. One possibility would be to do a ½ day before or after the DC ICSA meeting this summer (Pete, you could give a talk, go over your list “you know it’s a Catholic cult like group if….”).

Aaron excellent suggestion. They should all have had the strong encouragement to find not only independent counseling, but also independent (non lc) spiritual directors, as soon as the Vatican offered its "assistance."

Tom, I live in Atlanta.
I do believe that R/C is a Cult and after leaving I had textbook symptoms of that.
I would have loved to attend the meeting in Atlanta but was afraid to be seen. Also I do not know who is now Ex RC as I left and CUT all ties with everyone and to this day have no idea who stayed RC and who left.
We are all healing but Life in the Catholic Church changed for us in that we still DO NOT trust ANYONE in the Church. We keep to ourselves and have a wall up forever. It feels that we lost our innocence and our trust and it never will come back.
We wish we had never been BEFRIENDED by these wolves disguised at DailY Mass, But as Giselle had said Window Dressing it looked so Catholic. Little did we know till many years down the road

I keep wondering what DeP thought he was supposed to be doing (except for his unsuccessful attempt to try to find the money). Other than that all he seemed to do was oversee some minor rule changes and hold an election that kept the old guard fully entrenched. The LC could have done that all by themselves without any help from him.
I expect that he was very comfortable during his time with the Legion.
I find it very irksome that this whole 3.5 years simply bought time for the LC and RC to keep on recruiting and ordaining and consecrating new members. I wonder if any of them thought there was some sort of reform going on.

Aaron:

I would agree that LC and RC are also victims of Maciel.

That being said, a good friend of mine is a Protestant minister with a graduate degree in family counselling. One of his favourite expressions is "A victim can also be an abuser. In fact, statistically a victim very often becomes an abuser."

Dear Ex R/C and healing, I sympathize. The delegate was ineffective, but he did not give a ringing endorsement on the way out either. The RCs I see seem to have their heads a bit low. If we ever have a meeting, I hope to see you. I am not a counselor, but you can always reach me via Giselle if you want. Peace.

Pete- Half a million years ago (well, not quite), on one of the blogs discussing this, you mentioned that to suppress an order with an attached lay movement, you had to first peel off the lay movement.... otherwise, you'd get schism along with lay people willing to finance it and keep it going.

So... could the focus on RC be because the Vatican is afraid of a schism situation? How long would something like SSPX survive without fanatical lay supporters?

I can understand why the Vatican would worry-- it seems like schism is a lot easier to prevent than it is to heal.

Which means that nothing really CAN be done to restructure the LC until RC is spun off and totally independent. You don't even need a LOT of lay people to sustain a schism, you just need a decent core of WEALTHY believers in the cause...

OTOH, I think the Vatican may be overestimating how many RC people would actually follow the LC hardliners into schism. I think most rank and file would follow the Church in this, as long as they got the decision unfiltered by the people interested in keeping them attached to Maciel's organization......

This has me going back to Fr. Berg's last article where he states the RC itself should be the LCs apostolic charism, a distinctly bad idea....but, if it is the opposite, the RC is made truly independent of the LC that would be a game changer. Remember independence means also sacramental independence, as in the case of female branches not being permitted to have confessors from their male branches.
Will that be precisely the card the Pope is going to play? To separate the RC from the LC forces the LC to have to remake itself in many ways.

"We have not attempted to give a judgment , we leave that to God"

Disgusting example of a refusal to govern. You are right, Giselle, that judgment is part of the nature of authority. This shows us how bankrupt of understanding of Catholicism so many of the hierarchy are. They are mid-level bureaucrats, mandarins.

And it appears that Pope Francis also renounces governance: he wants to travel on an Argentinian passport, and keep his Argentinian national ID - this for a head of state of Vatican City.

Dear ex R/C and healing, I was in RC for many years and left in 2009. Many leaders initially hung on, but now have left. I know many of those who left and can also tell you some who have stayed. Don't be afraid and don't let these guys get to you. Feel free to contact me through giselle. Would strongly recommend a book "Take Back Your Life" by Lalich and Tobias, previously recommended on this blog.

Dear ex RC and healing -
I find the best way to deal with RC is to be very blunt about it. If you want to know if a program is RC, ask. If someone wants to know why you are asking, tell them you had a bad experience with the group and so you are avoiding their events. No one can tell you what to feel or who to trust, or how good or bad your experience was. What's the worst they can do? Whisper about you? Who cares? It says more about them than you. Don't give anyone that kind of power to limit your life.

If you run into people you knew in RC, find a way to ask if they are still involved, you'd be surprised to know how many have left. I rekindled a friendship last year with an old friend from RC. She left about 2 months after me, but I didn't know she left and she didn't know I left. Don't let the bad experience isolate you. There is strength in numbers.

The whole group is withering and dying. Just go on with your life and be a good Catholic. Let Pope Francis be a good model for you. Reach out to others. Be bold. You are wasting time being afraid of the dark yet you are hiding out in the darkness. What would Jesus do?

Is the De Paolis interview available in the original Italian anyplace? If anyone has a link, I'd appreciate being able to read it. Thanks.

Dear Deirdre and others:

Back when the scandal first broke with regards to Maciel's daughter, I think schism would have been a real possibility had Rome moved too quickly. Today, I almost get the impression most remaining RC might feel relief to find themselves separated from LC and put under the authority of someone else in the Church.

However, I think the real issue with RC, unlike LC or the 3gf/m, is that RC actually appears to have some sort of recognizable charism. Personally, I think RC should be handed off to either the national bishops' conference or to the Jesuits.

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