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so true Aaron. Often thinking of you and if you ever got back into your Catholic Faith since leaving L/C

Our Parish St Brendans in GA is now run by L/C so it is just all out nothing hidden. We are VERY careful and have concrete walls up around us. They do Missions, Retreats for teens etc. As Giselle said the window dressing looks very good.
Wish the Pope protect the sheep and lambs.
We live in walking distance to this Church

I agree wholeheartedly with @Aaron that conscience is so multi-faceted that to judge all LC or RC without taking into consideration their personal conscience is very dangerous. Each member acted and acts according to his or her individual conscience: as informed, mis-informed or deformed as it may have been.
Those who left, no matter how well or ill-formed their conscience was at the time, did so in obedience to their conscience. "God’s mercy has no limits, if you go to him with a sincere and repentant heart, the issue for those who do not believe in God is to obey their conscience" (Pope Francis' open letter to non-believers in La Reppublica, Sept 11, 2013
Likewise, those who stayed did so in obedience to conscience. When Fr Eduardo Robles Gil received the most votes, he did not say, "I accept", he said, "I obey". Did he mean he obeys the will of the electors or his own conscience? Only he can answer that question.
Obedience to conscience is the underlying law of all moral decision. It is always debatable how well formed someone's conscience is. That is why it is never a good idea to lump all legionaries and RC member in the same basket.

Did some people really make a free will conscious decision to remain?
According to International Cultic Studies Assn experts, the methodology utilized by groups such as LC and RC systematically takes away their members' free will by making them increasingly dependent for all their needs. As all of their major decisions (and even most minor ones) are made for them the members lose their critical thinking ability and become rule followers. This is mind control in action and should have no place in the Catholic Church.
While the renewal was happening, some of the mind control was eased- e.g. more access to information from outside sources and more contact with family. So as some of the mind control was wearing off, a minority regained enough free will to get out.
I would love to see an independent review of LC and RC policies carried out by a cult and mind control expert with a report made public.

Dilbert: Free, no not at all. However I think sometimes the label 'mind control' over-mystifies the good old fashioned manipulation, above all of man's religious psychology.
> When it comes to the conscience: Control of information so that it cannot act;
> When it comes to the will: increase the fear of of undesired outcomes (like leaving the group) - such that the fear is disproportionate to or not validated by objective reality.

Religious life by its nature is a controlled environment, and it is very vulnerable to this kind of manipulation. You do not need to be an MM-like evil genius to conjure it up.

Afterall did not DePaolis use it?

Use of Fear: In the name of prior religious vows and promises invalidly made, he held members feet to the fire to follow him into the reform. He created obligation for the 3GF when there was none whatsoever..the 3GF had no canonical standing whatsoever to receive or make promises of any type. He berated those who left and heaps praise on those who stayed.

Deprivation of information: His unwillingness to investigate collaborators with Maciel. He never explains to the LCs that the 'ghost' constitution they used to discern their vocation to religious life was never valid at the time they made their vows. He gives misinformation about charism constantly- clear and beautiful one minute, then unable to defined, then redirects everyone to patrimony. He moves their conscience into a subjective analysis of their own "good" experiences so as to invalidate calls for more thorough rendering of the order's true history.

So freedom to follow a fully informed conscience is not a reality in the LC as far as their processes go. However we have seen rumblings and awakenings among members that are by no means insignificant.

Has anyone marched out of the Legion lately? Some predicted there would be another exodus after the GC.

Dilbert's comment regarding the freedom of will is compelling -- without the exercise of free will, conscience is irrelevant. Without the exercise of free will, there is no human decision.

In a cult -- no matter how "thoroughly" it's been "reformed" or "purified" -- there is no exercise of free will.

Les- Well Fr. Deomar Deguedes has and Fr. Timothy Meehan seems to be in process, but information on departures is slow moving, and the LCs will fight tooth and nail to keep it tight lipped.

Time... they have not yet received the GC Communiqué not the "New" Constitutions.

Presentation and comments of the communiqués of the general chapter:

Good news:

Lets hope and pray that justice prevails.

For what it's worth about the Chu case - I know some of the folks involved, and Dr. Chu was never going to give it to his son anyway, assuming his son wants the money. It was because he was not Catholic, or his lack of faith, or something along those lines. That being said, the money could have gone to a real religious order. Interestingly enough, the layman who secured that gift for the Legion is no longer RC.

I'm stunned, Sad. Paul is an excellent Catholic. Very serious, well-formed. I believe he came to this decision in great anguish because of a sensitive conscience. Your comment is scandalously ill-informed.

Maybe Mr. Chu and his father disagreed on the matter of the Legion of Christ and the sanctity of Maciel? If there was an estrangement, it wouldn't be the first time that happened because of a family member's involvement with LegReg. And for someone who has fallen hook, line and sinker for Maciel, they might conclude that any family member critical of MM is a bad Catholic.

Thank you for clearing up then giselle. It is possible that either my source misunderstood, or that Paul is indeed a serious Catholic only not whatever kind of Catholic his father wanted to leave the money to. Either way, what I do know for certain is that many of Dr. Chu's old friends, including the man who helped secure this gift, are no longer RC.


I don't know who you are, but you are entirely wrong -- 180 degrees wrong.

It's shocking that you would make such a false statement.

Regarding Chu case,
Legionaries involved with the benefactor Chu said that his family was "anti-clerical/catholic". This was Bannon's and others' modus operandi - convince the dying Chu that his family was the enemy and the Church (represented by the Legion) was the solution.

Anyone who was not the primary contact(s) like Fr. Bannon and Fr. Alex Yeung were told to avoid contacting Chu's family at all costs [although a lot of lc/rc apostolates found the easy money too good to pass up] because they were against the Church.

What Sad is saying is true from the point of view of the info that was provided from the primary contacts. Since it was the primary cultivator who had contact with the family, it was impossible to know how things really were.

Fr Rocca interviews Fr Gil
Good commentary by Philip Lawler.

Little Light,

Not sure what your point is.

These cult members were lied to about the matter, and they accepted the lies -- so they're either complicit or stupid or both.

And in this case, the lies are whoppers -- the exact opposite of the truth.

This incident only confirms the fact that the cult is the work of the one who is
"a Liar and the Father of Lies."

As if we needed confirmation.

Saint Michael the Archangel, pray for us!

Thanks HP,
The point is that Sad confirmed the story that was given internally about the (wealthy) Mr. Chu's family - that they were anti-clerical/catholic. The Legionary modus operandi of lie, cheat and steal seems to sum it all up.

It was amazing to what lengths the Legion went to brainwash the donor and kick up clouds of dust internally so that no one would get in their way. When millions are at stake, nothing seemed to get in their way kind of like their father founder...

A Legionary could give a 5 hour conference on truth based on the Bible, St. Thomas Aquinas and Papal documents and then go out and lie to donors 5 minutes later. At some point, dissociative identity disorder seems like a constant in Legionary psychology since they could put on and take off hats and personalities without blinking an eye. Prayer, gregorian chants, all night vigils in reparation for a sinful world and then abuse, lie, cheat, etc.

This topic has taken an interesting turn - talking about conscience and then a textbook example of LC conscience deformity appears:

Sad tells us what he or she has heard regarding this case. This misinformation originated without doubt from a Legionary priest.

First he allows himself to create a lie that he can believe: the family are anti-catholic. In Legion talk, the word Catholic can mean Legion because the LCs are the only real priests etc etc. If the family showed any hesitation towards the Legion the LC would take this as a personal attack, an attack on the Legion and therefore an attack on the Church: how dare you question us? we are approved by the pope!

So whatever disagreement there may or may not have been, the LC priest states his "truth" and gets it out there. He is thus protecting the Legion, himself and obtaining his objective: divide the family, get the money.

His conscience will not interfere because he is doing what is expected by his superiors and by god. It will not interfere because he believes that he is saying the truth. It will not interfere because the ends justify the means.

And then we get the story in full with many more details added in as it is passed down the line.

Sad, I would like you to think about who told you this. I think it would be good to get the real truth about this fed back to those that are doing the Legion's work.

My main point about talking about the delegation of conscience aimed to say that you cannot trust a legionary of christ. They lie all too easily. This is a perfect example of that.

I agree with Aaron, this topic has taken an interesting turn.

After 5 years of watching events unfold in LegReg, I have concluded that they are not capable of change. This discussion of Legionary conscience, and Legionary "truth" (their "truth", as if multiple versions of truth could exist) underlines my conclusion. A sincere love of Christ and the Church apparently can coexist with a warped sense of truth and conscience. We can talk and reason with our LegReg friends or priests, and never gain an inch of ground with truth and appeals to logic or conscience. Because at the very point where they should see the spark of truth, their capacity for reason blanks out, and the lies that uphold their "truth" take over. There is no hope of convincing them otherwise.

When people say "there are many good men and women involved in LegReg", I am inclined to believe this to be true. But to me, it is like the good people I know have been brain-injured and there is no way that injury is to ever be undone.

We may not be able to do much for them except pray. In our parishes, we can make it too much trouble for our pastors to support their programs. We can do what we can to limit the proliferation of LegReg programs.

Finally, I believe they will survive this past 5 years, because they have successfully blamed everything on Maciel. But now that denouncing Maciel is one of the big conclusions of their General Chapter, they claim the right to find their spirituality on their own, Maciel-free terms. They will carry on doing things according to their warped "truth". They will get into trouble again. And there will be no pinning it on MM. The next big investigation of the Legion will be the one that brings it to an end.

Little Light and Aaron,

Thanks for your explanations.

It's outrageous that cult members would repeat such defamatory lies -- but apparently it's not surprising. You can't trust these people.

HonestyPlease, in my own personal experience I have found that pretty much EVERYTHING a legionary priest says is far from the truth. In fact I listen and then I imagine the opposite of what they say and try to reconcile that image to what the LC says. Somewhere the real truth will come out.

Giselle says that really conscience cannot be truly abdicated and I will concede that. If it were so easy, there would be no blame: if the legionary lies and sins because it is his LC "duty" then the blame should lie with the superior, but that is not the case.

No, in that sense the conscience is always the individual's liability.

What i mean is that the conditions of conscience affecting behaviour were controlled externally, but not the repercussions.

I think in particular of the Territorial Director of Europe, former Rector of Salamanca, Fr. Jesus Maria Delgado Vizcaino who is a priest who lies flagrantly and has been such a hideous testimony of a man who uses authority to hurt and damage and therefore control his subjects while appearing to be naive and pleasant.

He is entirely responsible for his behaviour but he acts in that way because he has abdicated his conscience - he allows himself to act the way he does because the greater good demands it. He justifies it externally.

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