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Happy Easter Giselle!

I have always been a bit interested in LC numbers.

Up until now, the LC official figures for seminarians always included major and minor (under 16s) seminarians. This was only ever acknowledged on the Portuguese language website. It is interesting that they omit the figures for apostolics now.

I posted in September 2009 that there were 2500 major and minor seminarians.
The new figures state that there were 1433 Novices and religious, suggesting just over 1000 Minor seminarians.

In June 2011 I wrote that there were 800 Legionary priests and 2600 major and minor seminarians studying for the Priesthood
New figures state that there were 920 priests (there were ordinations that year, after I published these figures) and 1045 Major seminarians, suggesting nearly 1600 minor seminarians.

The only new figures that we have regarding minor seminarians are from 2012 and 2012 stating that there were 945. If we consider the new figures to be true, or closer to the truth, then there has been a massive loss of 600 minor seminarians in four years OR there weren’t as many as originally stated.

The number of losses in Priest numbers can be calculated by searching for how many were ordained in each year. For example there is a deficit of 18 priests when this is tallied up for 2009, and 35 for 2010. What the Legion does not count here are the priests that have removed themselves from community but are not seeking incardination - technically they are still legionaries, but they have stood aside from the legion informally.

In reflection, the newspaper's assertion that there was only one new novice last year isn't completely accurate - the novitiate lasts two years. Every year the 2nd year novices stop being novices and become professed religious. If 30 novices progress to religious profession and 31 newbies join the novitiate then it would appear that there was only one person new to the novitiate: 30 new novices replace 30 that have moved on and there is one extra.

So there may well have been more than one new novice. It does show, nevertheless, that there is almost no growth in the novitiate on the previous year, and there has been big losses on people joining and or staying in the novitiate.

So sorry to hijack, but I don't know how else to contact you. Both Dawn Eden and Rod Dreher have posted about their very bad experiences with Catholic therapist, P. Mango. He is part of the St. Michael's Institute, but what no one has mentioned yet is that St. Michael's is a Legion front and Mango is (was?) involved in LC/RC. I, too, had a very bad experience with him; it's a relief to know it wasn't me, after all.

@ Mimi, my husband and I saw P. Mango for marriage counselling at Our Lady of Bethesda, RC center. We knew his connection with RC. The counselling ended abruptly because my husband was unhappy with something I said in a session. It does seem that all of what "they/RC" do is "infected". This blog has helped me see that I was not alone in my experiences....two daughters in 3gf, but one left in 2007 with mental and physical problems. Still some residual problems, but mostly resolved. My husband and are are soon to be divorced after 38 years and 9 children.

@helen: I am so sorry. Tragic every way you look at it. Be assured of our prayers.

Thanks for your compassion and prayers!!

I noticed this post over at Rod's place and thought about mentioning it here. I had no idea about the Mango/LC-RC connection until Mimi and Helen mentioned it.

If you check out the comments section of this post, there is an interesting conversation going on in the about affinity fraud. The topic of affinity fraud has many parallels to what we have been discussing here lo these many years about lc/rc.

Rod's discussion with comments here:

And here is the link to Dawn's post:

I know his son used to teach at the LC Thornwood seminary. And he (the father) also spoke at one of the NYC "absolutely not LC/RC, we swear!!" Theology on Tap.

Does anyone know: does that mean that every name listed on the St Michael's Institute website is RC?

And @Helen, I will pray for you; so very sorry for all you're suffering.

Peter Mango (his son) was a Legionary. Soon after leaving the Legion he pursued the path of Philosophy, later becoming a Professor in Thornwood and obtaining his PhD from their Atheneum in Rome.

I think his son was alright, and I think he's or was teaching in Yonkers.

The Mangos had very strong ties to the Legion. I am not sure about right now, but wouldn't be surprised if they are very close to the Legion. About the St Michael's institute not sure whether it is an RC apostolate, but I'll do my research to find out.

@Helen, my parents divorced when I was about 12. I have seen my mother struggle and it was a decisive factor for me when I decided to leave the Legion. Father Robles Gil at the time told me that given my condition as "consecrated soul" I wasn't obliged to help my family. I thought that was the worst advice he could've given me at the time. And as soon as I could, I came back home. We are still struggling, but I think things look brighter now. I will pray for you, God will always provide.

Mimi, Paul Vitz is a professor at the Legion's Institute for Psychological Sciences (IPS) in Arlington,VA so he is almost certainly RC. There is a Peter Mango at IPS also, wonder if he's related.

What a typically legion mess...!

Jeannette, yes they are related, he is his son.

Sad story for a number of reasons. Particularly painful is the mix between the Legion and psychology since the Legion used psychology to strong arm young people and vulnerable adults who looked to the Church for direction. Once they got people into the cult, then they made a point of making them dependent on it psychologically. After a number of young men lost their mind at Cheshire and needed to go away to a mental hospital or get years of therapy, it was clear that the Legion´s soup recipe wasn´t meant for healthy souls. Then to turn around and become advisors to psychologists and establish the IPS tells me that any psychologist who lets themselves be influenced by them will soon be rotten to the core. It is not that the Legion received pyschos by mistake or recruiting too heavily, these guys came as normal adolescents with problems of course. Some were overly worried about freeing the souls in purgatory. Others were just the quiet type. They never had any idea when these guys were going to break or even that these kids needed help. They had one instructor of novices who made a point to break down the mental health of whoever he didn´t care for. And he was the replacement for Fr. William Izquierdo who himself was a messed up nut case. He came to Cheshire like the chosen one and soon they had Fr. William back in Cheshire after this Spanish priest left with his tail between his legs. The Legion (and RC by default) is one wrecking truck of human psychology. Some of the LCs formators should be in jail for what they did to kids.

I would also let out a huge warning to whatever institution thinks of employing IPS graduates. This is a virus that just multiples...

Just went to the IPS website.

Do you have a vocation to heal? Hear from our own students and faculty why they've chosen to come to IPS.

Are you called to join us? Watch the video now!


These guys can give out doctorates - what idiot would go to the Legion to become an expert in their twisted view of the person?

Look at their faculty....

Gladys M. Sweeney, Ph.D., Academic Dean Emerita, Senior Scholar and Professor (defended Maciel and called his accusers mentally ill people)

Paul C. Vitz, Ph.D., Senior Scholar and Professor (together with Dr. Phil Mango at St. Michael´s

Peter Mango, Ph.D., Adjunct Professor (son of the now well known Dr. Phil Mango)

A NY friend just forwarded this to me; here's the entire thing but the fifth paragraph down is the kicker (after so many years of denying it!):

From: "CSPYA"
To: Theology on Tap
Subject: Theology on Tap Ministry
Reply-To: "CSPYA"

Dear Members
We have received a number of emails from you about a recent article in the Wall Street Journal on Catholic young adult ministry in New York City. The article seems to have caused some confusion about Theology on Tap NYC, its mission and its leadership. (Sometimes, it is to be expected that the secular media will misinterpret details when it comes to reporting on our Faith.)

We just want to take this time to clarify a few things written in this article.

The article talks about Theology on Tap NYC and says the following: “And while the Sankeys NYC event marked the first time the church had rented a dance club, it isn't a stranger to the bar scene. It also invites young people to "Theology on Tap" events at a Midtown pub, a kind of Bible study with booze that regularly draws about 150 people to discuss topics like "Emotional Pornography" and "The Cross and Forgiveness."

The directors of Theology on Tap NYC would like to point out the truth about this particular apostolate. It is not “a kind of Bible Study with booze.” It was an apostolate started by Fr. Jack Wall in Chicago over 30 years ago, aimed at providing an opportunity for young adults to explore issues and topics that relate to the Catholic faith. We host various talks by both religious and lay speakers to encourage thoughtful discussions and a deeper understanding of the faith. While it may be a fun event hosted in a bar, the dynamic of the evening is Christ-centered and collegial, with spiritual direction being held for those who so wish, and a lot of people rediscovering their connection to the faith and to God.

Some of your emails to us also asked about who runs Theology on Tap. And you asked because the article makes it seem that the Young Adult Outreach Office of the Archdiocese of NY organizes Theology on Tap. We want to take this opportunity to clarify that Theology on Tap NYC has no affiliation with the Young Adult Outreach Office nor is this office in charge of Theology on Tap. This TOT ministry in NY was started by priests of the Legionaries of Christ in 2000 in collaboration with lay volunteers. It is now a completely volunteer-run ministry, but we still have a Legionary priest as our spiritual moderator. The organizing committee books the speakers and promotes the talks through our website, email list, and social media.

We hope this clears up any confusion. We thank you all for your support of Theology on Tap NYC, and we look forward to seeing you at our next event on April 28, 2014 with John Iannone, who will talk about “The Mystery of the Shroud of Turin-The Case of Authenticity,” 7:30pm-9pm, at Connolly’s Bar, 121 West 45th Street between 6th and 7th Avenue.

God bless,

The Theology on Tap Committee (Mario Bruschi, Pia Bruschi, and Tim O’Reilly)



Twitter: @totnyc

Facebook: Theology on Tap- NYC

Going back to the LC stats.

The LCs claim that the Apostolic Schools are 945 in number. This means about 230 graduate each year and are candidates for entrance into the novitiate, making up the lionshare of the 150+ novices each year.

These schools were never visited or reformed. No critique of them was ever offered by the Delegate or Visitors.

Putting a high school adolescent in this world is indeed cruel. He is unable to discern and evaluate well the kind of obstacles this order will pose later in life to him. I cannot understand why there is not more outrage at their continued existence.

If indeed the LCs are truly about the new evangelization, then they should have no problem finding candidates from the university world as Ignatius did, leave the vulnerable and undiscerning alone!

When the precandidates finish their senior year, they go home for 2 weeks. Those who return for candidacy are pretty certain to enter the novitiate. It used to be that a high percentage of graduating seniors would return. More recently, the percentages of returning seniors have dropped. The most recent groups of graduates have been shaky at best. Somehow information was being filtered to the parents that turned on their parental protection instincts and many started to figure out the lies and myths behind the grandiose schemes.

One of the tricks of the trade was that during the many years of apostolic school and precandidacy, they would leave materials pending to graduate HS and then have them finish it up in the novitiate.

They also deliberately lied to the apostolics/precandidates saying that they were already legionaries when canonically that was hardly the case.

There were a lot of tricky things they did to confuse and manipulate them, but the greatest one was what I say in another post - obsessing about minor details of Maciel's life as if he was already a saint and the retelling of heroic deeds that more than likely Maciel never did...

I wouldn't believe any of their numbers unless they stated by school and by grade and these numbers could be confirmed independently.

"They also deliberately lied to the apostolics/precandidates saying that they were already legionaries when canonically that was hardly the case."

And these poor children believed that they had CANONICAL obligations and an obligation by conscience to become Legionaries. They believed they had the same obligations of conscience as professed members of the legion.

I think that the drop out rate of apostolics is high and the actual percentage of apostolics who get ordained is also very low, but still the majority of Legionaries came from apostolic schools.

A number of apostolic schools are known to be centres of sexual abuse - France, Ontaneda, Moncada, New Hampshire, el Ajusco (Mexico DF) come to mind.

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